Races that have too much LA...

[Diirk]

But the Fire Genasi? Yeeesh. That guy just joined in last week, and is just 1st-level but with a +2 LA, one from race and one from some stupid thing published on the Wizards of the Coast website, somewhere, that gives him 4 (I think) bonus feats for a +1 LA. With those extra feats, he's got stuff like Precocious Apprentice, Spellcasting Prodigy, Bloodline of Fire, Spell Focus, and I think Practiced Spellcaster, among other things, that altogether give him a save DC of 19 or 20 for his Burning Hands spell, and a Spell Compendium spell called Fireburst or somesuch (with that durned Precocious Apprentice feat) that does something like 8d4 or 8d6 fire damage, AS A 1ST-LEVEL WIZARD OF 3RD-LEVEL EQUIVALENT. In an area, IIRC, but I don't have Spell Compendium so I can't check to see if I remember that little detail correctly. :\

Fireburst is does 1d8 damage/level to everything within 10' of you. With the feats you mention he'd be doing 3d8 damage (caster level of 1 + 2 for bloodline of fire)... the same as a 3rd level wizard would be doing without bloodline of fire or precocious apprentice. His int is going to be a maximum of 20, so for a 2nd level spell that makes a maximum save dc of 18 (10 + spell level 2 + int 5 + spell focus 1), 17 for a first level. Spell Prodigy just gives him a bonus spell or 2 (which is good because he only has what, 5 1st level spells ?) and practised spellcaster doesn't do anything as he is single classed.

As for the AC of 19-20ish... well his mage armour only lasts an hour, shield (if he uses it) lasts 1 minute, and he only has 5 first level spells a day.

Not to mention none of this has anything to do with the fire genasai... his feats were from some random template noone's heard of before, all he got from his genasai +1 LA is +2 int. He'd be better off as a gray elf.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

Hmm, leaving the story of the oh-so-redolent-of-cheese Spellcaster, I think Satyrs are rather gimped by their ECL. Okay skills and racial bonuses, BAB less than a full caster's without LA, A spread of +2 attribute bonuses without penalties is nice, but geared so that no matter what class you pick at least some of those bonuses will be on your dump stats. Worst of all your pipes have a Save even a level 1 fighter will probably make about half the time, once the save is made the pipes fail for 24 hours vs. that target, and they are just as likely to affect your allies as your enemies unless the whole party are satyrs.

 

[DreamChaser]

Yeah...as mentioned above, the stat boots of the planetouched races makes them perfect for twinking into spellcasters. If they had no LA, then there would be no reason (RP considerations aside) to ever play a cleric or paladin that was not an aasimar or a wizard, psion, or warblade who was not a tiefling.

DC

 

[Votan]

Yes, but then again, how many times does this ability add on to a class that doesn't get those weapon proficiencies? Answer= a lot. That ability makes the following base classes stronger than for non-elves.

Bard, cleric, druid, rogue, sorceror, wizard. Some fine classes there.

A longbow is a lot better than a cruddy light crossbow. And a longsword is superior to all simple weapons. Plus all the skill bonuses they get in high-use skills is really nice. Elves should be toned down a bit, but probably are not worth a LA+1.

Rogue is mixed as they already have some of these proficiencies.

In terms of the Sorcerer and Wizard, this is a very minor boost at low levels. At higher levels a low level spell will always be a better action then a bow. Druids tend to wildshape at medium and higher levels. Only the cleric really benefits. Even then, the cleric is probably able to better take advantage of the human's bonuses.

The longsword appears to average one point of damage over other weapons that are easily available to these classes. It's actually worse than the Longspear that the Sorcerer already has (and, with arcane spell failure for shields, isn't likely to be needing the other hand). The Heavy Mace is 1d8 damage and x2 crit on a 20 instead of a 19-20.

These are very small differences.

The feat count is misleading as martial weapon proficiency and exotic weapon proficiency are the same cost.

So compare:

Longsword 1d8; 19-20/×2 (slashing)
Bastard Sword 1d10; 19-20/×2 (slashing)
Dwarven Waraxe 1d10; ×3 (slashing)

Or, for ranged weapons:

Longbow, composite; 1d8 ×3
Crossbow, repeating heavy; 1d10 19-20/×2


Obviously these exotic weapons are nicer than the martial weapons. A human could take this as their bonus feat and trump the elf for either melee or ranged immediately.

 

[Votan]

Campaign world limited, and only first level, unless I misremember. Plus, once you ahve longsword and composite longbow, exactly what other martial proficiencies do you actually need?

Guisarme and Greatsword (both do more damage than the longsword and the Guisarme allows trips at reach). The people without shield proficiencies typically have no penalty for having one hand holding their two handed weapon while they cast.

For the rogue, the composite shortbow has peformed similar to the Longbow in all of the cases that I have seen so getting it is not a huge boost.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

Obviously these exotic weapons are nicer than the martial weapons. A human could take this as their bonus feat and trump the elf for either melee or ranged immediately.

Only if a BAB+1 class as Exotic weapon requires a +1 BAB. Also the Or in your sentence above is a big or. As for elf it is both. Something for free is always better than spending one of your 7ish feats on it.

 

[Amitiel]

It's a matter of how you use them sometimes. Several of my game group have looked up Lizardfolk several times while I played one since by taking monk, with Multiattack and the Tail Attack feat I went from about average in low levels to nigh unstoppable in mid levels. We're a 9th level party of 3 (though I have followers, 7th level paladin cohort and 6 lizardfolk who as yet have no class levels) and we are blowing through CR 10-12's like they aren't there. Our last real challenge was a trio of Blasphemes (Libris Mortis pg85) even if thier blasphemous touch ability (LE here) didn't effect me they are fast and have loads of hp. The Unholy area we were standing in didn't help either since it made them stronger.

 

[Votan]

Only if a BAB+1 class as Exotic weapon requires a +1 BAB. Also the Or in your sentence above is a big or. As for elf it is both. Something for free is always better than spending one of your 7ish feats on it.

True, in terms of the free. But I rate races in D&D based on opportunity cost. In exchange for:

1) Less flexibility in multi-classing (i.e. a Favored class that is not any)
2) 4 skill points at 1st level plus one skill point per level
3) 1 free feat

Do I get enough?


Now, a gross weakness of the D&D race balancing is that the races operate differently with different classes. For example, a human fighter is (in my opinion) strange if you want a pure class fighter using the all class abilities (wearing heavy armor, for example). Because a Fighter has 18 feats -- getting one more is small compared to what the dwarf gets:

Save bonuses (needed for a fighter; almost always give +2; nearly worth 3 feats), Stability bonuses to improve tactical fighting, better CON instead of a fighter dump stat, ability to use a dwarven waraxe and darkvision (no carrying a torch or being blinded in melee by having the lights go out). Losing the skill points is rather beside the point when the foghter list is so poor.

Meanwhile, a elf fighter is pitiful. Gain dex (heavy armor limits the advantage of this) to lose con. Never a trade for a martial class except for an archer and it is awkward for an elf to multi-class with other archery based classes. Lose the weapon profs with no compensation.

So this does make the whole thing rather hard to judge. If my elf is a rogue, he may look really cool. If my elf is a fighter, this appears far less than optimal.

 

[Amitiel]

Meanwhile, a elf fighter is pitiful. Gain dex (heavy armor limits the advantage of this) to lose con. Never a trade for a martial class except for an archer and it is awkward for an elf to multi-class with other archery based classes. Lose the weapon profs with no compensation.

So this does make the whole thing rather hard to judge. If my elf is a rogue, he may look really cool. If my elf is a fighter, this appears far less than optimal.

If your going for an armor build yes but there is more than one way to skin a dragon. Elves make impressive to down right scary Finesse fighters. While some people will muti or go with rogue for this I have seen some straight fighters builds that run circles (in some cases literally) around heavy armor fighters. All it takes is the right combination of feats and staying alive until you break out of low level. The armored dwarf fighter is a better damage sponge at low level but once you reach a certain point the armor tanks start losing ground to the finesse fighter. Its that pesky touch AC, the armor fighter in my group has a 32 AC but his touch AC is 15. A good speed build can have Touch ACs in the 20s. Weapon Finesse combined with Spring Attack will turn the finesse fighter into a nearly untouchable walking blender. Though it still has weaknesses like Reach weapons it isn't quite as useless as your suggesting.

 

[Votan]

If your going for an armor build yes but there is more than one way to skin a dragon. Elves make impressive to down right scary Finesse fighters. While some people will muti or go with rogue for this I have seen some straight fighters builds that run circles (in some cases literally) around heavy armor fighters. All it takes is the right combination of feats and staying alive until you break out of low level. The armored dwarf fighter is a better damage sponge at low level but once you reach a certain point the armor tanks start losing ground to the finesse fighter. Its that pesky touch AC, the armor fighter in my group has a 32 AC but his touch AC is 15. A good speed build can have Touch ACs in the 20s. Weapon Finesse combined with Spring Attack will turn the finesse fighter into a nearly untouchable walking blender. Though it still has weaknesses like Reach weapons it isn't quite as useless as your suggesting.

I am not saying that an Elf Finesse Fighter isn't an option. But it has some steep hills to climb as a viable build. For example, I find Barbarian levels (1, as a matter of fact, for the fast movement) help enormously but the Elf cannot take this level due to favored class restrictions.

And they will need to have an amazing AC because the 12 CON that they are likely to have under point buy means they lack endurance in battle. Heck, a Gnome Bard probably has the same hit points as they do.

At low levels armor is the best source of AC in the game. Finesse Fighters are probably wearing chain shirts (and less, later, if they increase dexterity instead of strength).

I am pretty convinced that a Human does finesse fighter better than an elf; heck, I ampretty convicned that a Half Elf does it better as well as this is one of those archetypes that begs for multi-classing.

So it isn't so bad that it is unplayable. It's jsut that early in the arguemnt the question of AElves needing +1 LA came up. In some classes the elf is strong (but maybe not stronger than a human). But +1 LA seems like overkill.

In other classes, the Elf is clearly not the optimal chocie regardless of what you try to do. Sure, a playable Elf fighter is possible. But I think it will be generally weaker, overall, then the dwarven competitor as the Dwarf bonuses and penalties synergize well with the class.