Races that have too much LA...

[Votan]

I never said nor do I think that a core rules elf is a +1 LA.

The only thing I was commenting on was that gaining all martial weapon proficiencies is not equivalent to a single feat. The only place it is, is in using the PGtF regional feat.

This is not the same thing.

True re: the comments about the relative power of the feats under consideration. I freely admit that the Regional feats are a bit powerful relative to other feats.

But the discussion of elf power was in response to the argument that elves should be +1 LA. It's true that the example feat was a strong one and from a source with limited access. But it was intended as a counterpoint to the idea that the elf weapon proficiencies could be considered as equal to 4 bonus feats.

I'd be happy to consider Militia equal to 1.5 regular feats but that is still better than what the elf gets.

It is true that blindly duplicating this as a wizard would cost many feats. But the same could be said of the humans bonus skill points -- open minded gives 5 bonus skill points and so, across 20 levels, this would take something like 4 to 5 feats to match. But this is a very poor way to allocate things and I suspect nobody would value things this way.

But I coiuld be wrong.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I'd argue that automatic proficiency in both longsword and longbow and ability to spot secret doors without looking is worth almost an LA by itself.

The secret doors thing is very DM dependable. I have seen campaigns where there were hardly any secret doors, and the elves got nothing.

And the longsword, rapier, shortbow and longbow (which is what elves get) aren't that usefull:

Most characters that will use those weapons will be proficient with them, anyway, and most of the rest will hardly get anything out of it:

• Fighters, rangers and the like are already proficient
• Rogues are already proficient with half the weapons (shortbow, rapier), and they usually don't like the longsword, as you can't use it with weapon finesse. So only the longbow remains (more or less +1 damage, not that much of a bonus)
• Arcanists will often use those weapons, meaning they might have a small edge on lower levels (using those instead of quarterstaff and light crossbow) once they run out of spells

I alwas found those proficiencies nice (as elven arcanists can use proper weapons instead of toys), but nothing I'd ever waste resources on

Although dwarves are definitely quite strong for an LA 0, at the same time they'd be pitifully weak for an LA +1. I'm not sure people who suggest that they get an LA have actually tried playing an LA race before...

I did. +1 and +2 both. I am playing a drow in a current campaign.

Dwarves are too strong without LA. Giving them +1 would probably mean that noone would play them (which suits me just fine). But in order to keep them as a LA-less race, I instead made them small.

When the people over at WoTC were designing the game mechanics, it seemd like they didn't put much thought into monster LA. It seems like most of the La humanoids have way too much for instance...
Tiefling! Wow, darkness! Gee! Not worth an LA, esp. when outsiders can't be resurrected, etc.

Native outsiders can be resurrected. They also have to eat and sleep. They're somewhere between humanoids and outsiders. Humanouts, if you will.

Tieflings get half-decent ability adjustments and energy resistances.

Aasimar! Wow, daylight! Same as tiefling!

Plus the trifling matter of some half-decent resistances and two bonuses to ability scores without any penalties. They make great paladins and clerics.

Drow! Ok, they have nice spell resistance, and the darkvision is nice. Good abilites, too But...

...the SLA's are useless. Faerie FIre doesn't work with darkness, and a LA +0 gnome has dancing lights ,which is kind of useless. Also, the light blindness means that, if you are fighting a drow BBEG, your party arcanist can use the flare cantrip every round, blinding him, and making him a sitting duck for the fighter, cleric, and rogue. Kinda sad. To get around this, you waste a feat. YAY! Also, your HP sucks with -2 con and a the loss of 2 HD.

The flare cantrip won't work, since it must be bright light, like daylight or the spell of the same name.

Plus, there's always daylight adaptation...

Whereas the duergar get invisibilty, enlarge person, 3 power points and a Con bonus for the price of a -4 Cha penalty (least vital ability, unless playing a sorc or diplomat) and +1 LA.

Am I missing something here?

One thing you are missing is that in 3.5e, they overpowered the dwarven races even more than before, for some reason. (My guess is that those who did the revision were all raving dwarf fanboys )

 

[Justin Cray]

Man this LA/CR/ECL mess is...messy.

Is there something like a unified level theory? It would be sooo much more elegant if you could just level Templates and Races like Classes.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Man this LA/CR/ECL mess is...messy.

Is there something like a unified level theory? It would be sooo much more elegant if you could just level Templates and Races like Classes.

You generally can do that if you break up the abilities into levels. The trouble is really how many levels you decide to give the class (and sometimes where to put which abilities). SS does this a bit, and they've had many of the templates as classes in little online supplements.

 

[Diirk]

I've seen people mention aasimar and tieflings as examples of weak +1 LA races, but the genasai are even worse. I'm not quite sure how the +1 LA fire genasai is stronger than the +0 LA dwarf...

Mind you the fire genasai is probably the weakest +1 LA I've ever seen.

 

[frankthedm]

(My guess is that those who did the revision were all raving dwarf fanboys )

with a little too much druid love to boot!

Mind you the fire genasai is probably the weakest +1 LA I've ever seen.

Worse than the hobgoblin?

 

[Seeten]

I think so, Frank, I think so. Fire Genasi is atrocious.

 

[Arkhandus]

Well, at least regarding Fire Genasi, there's a wicked-powerful ECL 3 fire genasi wizard (IIRC, maybe sorcerer) in a campaign I'm playing in. My PC is just a simple, true neutral half-orc cleric of Fharlanghn...... Not very potent but a decent substitute frontliner and healer, plus fun to play with his background and stuff...

But the Fire Genasi? Yeeesh. That guy just joined in last week, and is just 1st-level but with a +2 LA, one from race and one from some stupid thing published on the Wizards of the Coast website, somewhere, that gives him 4 (I think) bonus feats for a +1 LA. With those extra feats, he's got stuff like Precocious Apprentice, Spellcasting Prodigy, Bloodline of Fire, Spell Focus, and I think Practiced Spellcaster, among other things, that altogether give him a save DC of 19 or 20 for his Burning Hands spell, and a Spell Compendium spell called Fireburst or somesuch (with that durned Precocious Apprentice feat) that does something like 8d4 or 8d6 fire damage, AS A 1ST-LEVEL WIZARD OF 3RD-LEVEL EQUIVALENT. In an area, IIRC, but I don't have Spell Compendium so I can't check to see if I remember that little detail correctly. :\

Of course, he's only got 6 HP, but his AC is something like 19 or 20 I think, from Mage Armor, some Dexterity, and I think something else....

.......Of course, a race shouldn't be considered balanced or unbalanced based solely on what broken feat and/or spell and/or item combinations apply to it....



Anyway, I'd generally agree that the 3.5 Dwarf is too strong for LA+0 compared to the other core races, while Hobgoblins, the various Planetouched races, and others tend to be rather weak with their Level Adjustment. A good LA+0 Dwarf would be Small probably, or just get -2 Dexterity and maybe -2 Reflex I would guess. An LA+1 Dwarf would need at least some more Strength and Constitution (growing more similar to Tolkien's dwarfs I think). Drow are probably fair with their Level Adjustment, possibly just a tad underpowered at worst, but still worth their ECL.


As for planetouched races, and draconic or half-dragon critters.....I'd ask ya to check my tweaked templates for Aasimar, Tieflings, Zenythri, Chaonds, Half-Dragons, and Draconic Descendants (my template for slightly-draconic critters) in my Rhunaria homebrew. I think I beefed them up sufficiently for their +1 LA (or +3 for my Half-Dragon template). For reference, Zenythri are planetouched humans descended from some unknown lawful outsider race in the Monster Manual II, and Chaonds are planetouched humans descended from slaadi or something in the Monster Manual II. My templates apply to more than just humanoids, though. A note though, I run 3.0 rules, so the Native Outsider subtype isn't used in my games, but planetouched races are still considered in my games to be outsiders native to the Material Plane. Also, the caster level of spell-like abilities for my templates is based on total hit dice, which means class levels plus any racial hit dice.

My Planetouched templates

My Dragon-Blooded templates (plus Dragon Disciple and Dragon Adept PrCs)

 

[WarlockLord]

Not to get to off-topic, but where would I find this template that adds 4 feats? Razravkar the wise drow magus could use a few.

 

[Sejs]

But the Fire Genasi? Yeeesh. That guy just joined in last week, and is just 1st-level but with a +2 LA, one from race and one from some stupid thing published on the Wizards of the Coast website, somewhere, that gives him 4 (I think) bonus feats for a +1 LA. With those extra feats, he's got stuff like Precocious Apprentice, Spellcasting Prodigy, Bloodline of Fire, Spell Focus, and I think Practiced Spellcaster, among other things, that altogether give him a save DC of 19 or 20 for his Burning Hands spell, and a Spell Compendium spell called Fireburst or somesuch (with that durned Precocious Apprentice feat) that does something like 8d4 or 8d6 fire damage, AS A 1ST-LEVEL WIZARD OF 3RD-LEVEL EQUIVALENT. In an area, IIRC, but I don't have Spell Compendium so I can't check to see if I remember that little detail correctly. :\

Err, I think someone may be doing something a bit wrong, there.

I'd definitely check the math on that one, and demand to see this mystery template. No 'hey free feats for you!' template I've ever heard of.