Races that have too much LA...

[AbeTheGnome]

There is a feat that gives proficiency with all martial weapons, but it's a regional feat from Forgotten Realms, available only to characters from certain areas, and only at character creation: Militia.

is there a new version of this feat in PGtF? i don't own it, but the FRCS says this:

Benefit: You get Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow) and Martial Weapon Proficiency (longspear). In Luiren, this feat applies to Martial Weapon Proficiency (shortbow) and Martial Weapon Proficiency (short sword) instead of longbow and longspear.

 

[Votan]

is there a new version of this feat in PGtF? i don't own it, but the FRCS says this:

Yes, they revised it for 3.5 to be proficiency with all martial weapons.

 

[Votan]

Well, it is and it isn't.

There is a feat that gives proficiency with all martial weapons, but it's a regional feat from Forgotten Realms, available only to characters from certain areas, and only at character creation: Militia.

Beyond that, there is not a widely available, prof-with-all-martial feat that anyone can pick up at any time.

So while there is such a feat, playing it off as something simple and easily taken would be disingenuous.

True, but it is within the range that designers have seen as balanced for a feat. I am not clear that it matches the abilities of an Asimar for example (which has +2 WIS, +2 CHA and about the same number of misc bonus as an Elf).

After all, the argument was that an Elf was +1 LA.

There is, for example, no comperable feat to the human skill point bonus but that doesn't kick it up +1 LA either.

 

[javcs]

There is, for example, no comperable feat to the human skill point bonus but that doesn't kick it up +1 LA either.

In fact, there is such a feat, albeit it's from BoED, it's called Nymph's Kiss or something like that, grants the bonus skillpoints and has a few other perks.

 

[Sejs]

True, but it is within the range that designers have seen as balanced for a feat. I am not clear that it matches the abilities of an Asimar for example (which has +2 WIS, +2 CHA and about the same number of misc bonus as an Elf).

The amusing thing is - depending on which sources you go by, I believe the FAQ (might have been the sage, can't recall atm) say that due to being outsiders, aasimar/tieflings/genasi are proficiency with all simple and martial weapons.

There is, for example, no comperable feat to the human skill point bonus but that doesn't kick it up +1 LA either.

Nymph's Kiss is kinda close, but it has some interesting requirements and the bonus skill point isn't multiplied by four even if the feat is taken at first level.

Edit: Heh, beaten to the punch on Nymph's Kiss.

 

[griff_goodbeard]

Arguments like this are the reason UA LA buy-off rocks so hard. A Drow's SLA's, Darkvison, and stat bumps are felt most at low level, but are nearly meaningless at high levels.

LA Buy-off is tied with racial paragon classes as my favorite thing to come out of UA.

 

[irdeggman]

As noted by Nifft this exists as a feat in a Wizards of the Coast 2.5 Sourcebook:

Militia

Benefit: You gain proficiency with all martial weapons.

Source: Player's Guide to Faerun, page 41.

A human who is not in a martial class could use his bonus feat to take Milita and have proficiency with many more weapons than a elf could.

Regional Feats are by design more powerful than "regular" feats. that is why they must be taken at first level and a character is limited to only a single regional feat.


Using this as an example of a single feat is misleading, especially since it only applies to Forgotten Realms (and only specific regions to boot). Regional benefits in the Realms also include bonus equipment and languages (also not core rules). The Core Rules specify proficiency in all martial weapons is not a single feat.

Heck the Player's Guide to Faerun has a variant section for 0 LA versions of races, including the drow (lesser drow).

 

[Votan]

Regional Feats are by design more powerful than "regular" feats. that is why they must be taken at first level and a character is limited to only a single regional feat.


Using this as an example of a single feat is misleading, especially since it only applies to Forgotten Realms (and only specific regions to boot). Regional benefits in the Realms also include bonus equipment and languages (also not core rules). The Core Rules specify proficiency in all martial weapons is not a single feat.

Heck the Player's Guide to Faerun has a variant section for 0 LA versions of races, including the drow (lesser drow).

Well, if you want to argue core-only then that is fine.

Consider:

Elves

-> +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution.
-> Elf base land speed is 30 feet.
-> Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
-> Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
-> Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.
-> +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
-> Favored Class: Wizard. A multiclass elf’s wizard class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

Humans

-> Human base land speed is 30 feet.
-> 1 extra feat at 1st level.
-> 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
-> Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass human takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count.

So we are comparing 1 feat, an effective bonus of +2 INT in terms of skills, and any favored class to some small miscellaneous bonuses: +2 on a small subset of saves, +2 to three rogue skills, low light vision and proficiency with 4 martial weapons.

The human has an extra maxxed out skill, any feat (including the ability to enter prestige classes faster) and a much easier ability to multi-class.


The elf is clearly disadvantaged with any martial class (where a major racial feature is simply removed with no compensation) and the con penalty is never a positive thing. Note that we are talking PHB elves -- we can have a separate discussion that is much more interesting about the MM elven subraces.

I am going to focus in on the cases where these things help the most. I think that we can rule out all 4 martial classes (Ranger, Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin), Bard (3 of 4 martial weapons on list and needs skill points badly), Monk (skill points critical) and classes were CON is critical (Druid).

I think the three best choices are:

Wizard (or Sorcerer) The canonical elf. Basically the elf loses out on a skill (probably another knowledge skill) and a feat to be able to fire a bow and then move. Nice at low levels; rapidly irrelevant at medium and high levels. Wizards can always use another feat to increase options even with the bonus class feats. The skill bonuses, not bad, do little for a class that isn't focused on these options. It is worth noting that a Human Wizard can still be better at all 3 using bonus skill points by medium levels.

The con penalty really makes the d4 hit points hurt.

Rogue This class has some of the elven weapon proficiencies already -- you are adding the longbow and the longsword. This is a minor benefit over options that already exist leading to +1 point of damage on attacks for a class that focuses on sneak attack damage. They get +2 on three skills (the human can get +2 on 2 of them with his bonus feat). The ability to detect secret doors is nice but careful work can replicate this.

The human gets another maxxed out skill resulting in more attribute points (lower INT) or more skills (alwasy important for a rogue). They get an extra feat for a feat starved class. Rogue is a poor single class choice -- adding two levels of another class can help a lot. The ability to buy a 14 CON (assuming point buy) makes wandering into melee to flank a little less scary.

I see many more human rogues than elf.

Cleric The best choice, in my opinion. All 4 weapons proficiencies help and the low light vision isn't bad. Skill bonuses syngerize with Find Traps. CON isn't a massive penalty.

Still, the feat starved cleric can use another feat for sure and the 2+INT skill points (with a good list) make the extra skill point tempting.


What I am noticing is that a credible argument can be made that an elf of equal level is weaker than a human. You might value elements differently and thus, for example, argue that the elf rogue > human rogue. But I am really interested to see how you could argue that the elf needs to be a level lower than the human for this to make sense.

Honestly, the best argument for this (at any level) is a level 1 wizard or sorcerer (where bow >> crossbow). But a human can burn a feat to duplicate this and still have better CON (in either point buy or rolled) and more skill points (which will matter a lot in the long run).


I don't mind people who argue human = elf; I find it a weak comparison in practice but it isn't like it is so bad nobody will ever play an elf. But to argue that an elf is +1 LA is pretty harsh . . .

 

[Rystil Arden]

irdeggman isn't trying to argue core-only, I think. He is pointing out (correctly) that the 3.5 FR regional feats are meant intentionally to be overpowered so that people will choose them and keep with their region's flavour. Back in 3.0, everyone got a bonus regional feat and they were weaker, but in 3.5, they changed it to the current status quo.

 

[irdeggman]

I don't mind people who argue human = elf; I find it a weak comparison in practice but it isn't like it is so bad nobody will ever play an elf. But to argue that an elf is +1 LA is pretty harsh . . .

I never said nor do I think that a core rules elf is a +1 LA.

The only thing I was commenting on was that gaining all martial weapon proficiencies is not equivalent to a single feat. The only place it is, is in using the PGtF regional feat.

This is not the same thing.