Racial Level Adjustments...think it works?

[sword3274]

I enjoy this conversation! This is one topic that has always intrigued me.

During one character creation session, I had a player considering a drow caster of some sort (I cannot remember which class) that was eventually dissuaded because of the "gimping" it would bring to be so far behind the rest of the party, level-wise. I thought about a fix at that point, but it flitted away from my mind, until reading this thread.

I don't know if this would be giving a hand to the already overpowered p) casters, but I'm considering giving one of the following to casters with a LA: caster level bonus of 1/2 LA, rounded down (doesn't help LA +1 races, but do they need much help only being one level behind?) or just a flat +1 to caster level (maybe with the condition that they must have a caster as a favored class and have levels in that class). I know I'm thinking about this with the drow in mind, so I'm not sure how this would affect other races, either being too power, or not powerful enough. I like either one of the above fixes, but I don't know how it would effect balance. I just know that playing a LA + race wizard in a 5th level group would be pretty damn frustrating at times, it would seem.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I do understand that it will give an advantage when all characters are 1st level, but I'm not sure how I would handle that aspect (maybe wait and stretch out the additional casting levels?)

 

[Aus_Snow]

What are your opinions about races that give a Level Adjustment or even extra hit dice that cause the ECL to raise? Do you think it is fair or does it seriously weaken the character at higher levels?

It's horribly broken and generally (as it stands) unworkable.

Thankfully, there are alternatives. None of which is going to appeal to all, mind you. Oh well.

 

[sword3274]

I just found this, which may or may not add to this conversation. I thought this part was interesting:

An example is the drow elf. Drow have a CR adjustment of "class level +1" and a LA of +2. Thus, an NPC drow Ftr5 has a CR of 6. However, that drow Ftr5 as a PC is treated as a 7th-level character (5 class levels plus the LA adjustment of +2 = 7). This is because the drow's spell resistance and other magical abilities are more valuable if he gets to use them over and over again, which he will get to do as a PC because he's played in multiple sessions, instead of being killed after one fight if he were a "monster."

 

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

The designers possibly felt that an ogre was stronger than a 4th lv fighter PC (remember, an ogre PC also benefits from improved stat array and PC wealth), and that it was roughly on par with a 6th lv PC.

Of course, we also know that wotc stinks at optimization, so it is possible the characters they used as yardsticks weren't all that strong themselves. So we have the problem of double-patching (you compare them to already sub-par characters, then adjust LA upwards just to "play it safe").

Then, there are some monsters which are impossible to balance (like the ghaele - LA+10/ECL20)...

i though it went without saying LA was set exactly in that manner.

Yup. I'd say my ECL variation helps if you are willing to have a slightly powerful campaign. It allows players to still optimize (if they want to) but regardless play a 'fun' race without being pitifully behind. Like ghestalt, but not nearly as bad,

 

[Voadam]

Races (or templates) with Level Adjustments are rarely worth it, unless they're a perfect fit for a character concept. This is especially true for races with racial HD. The only racial HD I'd consider are from outsiders and dragons, all other racial HD are not worth a level in a pc class.

I'd take a level of racial HD over an LA any day.

 

[Voadam]

No.

Its better to err the other way. I have played campaigns with all monstrous races and all free RHD. And we were all power gamers. As long as the DM knows that its slightly strong, its fine. Ghestalt is stronger.

It you want balance: Give the first LA*2+1 in RHD for free (they simply don't count against ECL). It only requires some common sense like for example no racial HD casting.

The reason its not the above as a primary rule is (as has been mentioned) the designers were rail-roading players into Tolkien models of humanoid races.

Gestalt is not designed to be balanced against non gestalt.

I'm not sure what you mean by free RHD. If you mean RHD don't count for ECL I'm not surprised the campaign ended up with all monstrous races. A level 1 ogre barbarian can handle a level 1 module no problem.

 

[irdeggman]

I'd take a level of racial HD over an LA any day.

Except that the "buy back" option from UA doesn't work with racial HD only with LA.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Well I try to discourage LA races for PCs. It's just not well thought out. Mmm, maybe I should say it is not equally implemented across all examples. But when players really want to play a LA race I can usually reach some sort of arrangement with them.

One thing I do do is ignore extra hit dice for humanoid (and similar sized) races. So that Gnoll mentioned above does NOT get those extra hit dice (and thus does not pay for them.) They just get the stat adjustments and racial skills/inate abilities. Then they get their class abilities and Hit Dice for what ever class. This would even work for me for, say, a Mind Flayer PC. For things that are by definition bigger and tougher (like Giants) this doesn't work for me. A Hill Giant, even a first level one, should have lots of hit points. Fortunately no-one has ever asked to play one of those (or anything similar) so I've been spared having to think about it too much.

The sylph as mentioned above would make me scream and pull a blanket over my head. Too much to consider.

I think the best thing a GM can do is consider what races (and everything else!) they will allow in their game from the start. Make any adjustments to them in terms of LA etc that they feel are warranted.

 

[irdeggman]

Well I try to discourage LA races for PCs. It's just not well thought out. Mmm, maybe I should say it is not equally implemented across all examples. But when players really want to play a LA race I can usually reach some sort of arrangement with them.

One thing I do do is ignore extra hit dice for humanoid (and similar sized) races. So that Gnoll mentioned above does NOT get those extra hit dice (and thus does not pay for them.) They just get the stat adjustments and racial skills/inate abilities. Then they get their class abilities and Hit Dice for what ever class. This would even work for me for, say, a Mind Flayer PC. For things that are by definition bigger and tougher (like Giants) this doesn't work for me. A Hill Giant, even a first level one, should have lots of hit points. Fortunately no-one has ever asked to play one of those (or anything similar) so I've been spared having to think about it too much.

The sylph as mentioned above would make me scream and pull a blanket over my head. Too much to consider.

I think the best thing a GM can do is consider what races (and everything else!) they will allow in their game from the start. Make any adjustments to them in terms of LA etc that they feel are warranted.

Be careful with those innate abilities - some of them are actually feats which are given because of the racial hit dice.

 

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Gestalt is not designed to be balanced against non gestalt.

I'm not sure what you mean by free RHD. If you mean RHD don't count for ECL I'm not surprised the campaign ended up with all monstrous races. A level 1 ogre barbarian can handle a level 1 module no problem.

You guessed correctly, but your example was wrong. A Level 3 wizard to a level 1 wizard ogre sounds about right

There are ways of balancing ghestalt to non-ghestalt but they are painful.

Then, there are some monsters which are impossible to balance (like the ghaele - LA+10/ECL20)...

Are we talking about the one in the SRD? They have no listed LA so they are not PC races...