Racially diverse artwork in D&D...does it influence you?

[Korgoth]

Another aspect of diversity that could be explored: European culture. No, don't groan quite yet! I see a lot of stuff that is identifiably Germanic (and Norse) and Celtic. But I don't see many, say, Russian or Polish-looking heroes. I'm speaking of distinctive panoply and dress, obviously. People say that a lot of artwork is European... but I think really in this context it means Northern and Western European.

 

[resistor]

While I could get behind a desire for more diverse art, I'd like to qualify it:

I want to see more realistically nations and cultures in fantasy settings. That means, among other things, realizing that there is internal diversity within populations other than Western European, that there are cultures other than the handful that are typically represented, that trade routes and cultures exist and blur cultural lines, and the ramification of colonization/migration/conquest and settlement by non-native cultures and ethnicities.

In a world with realistically designed national, cultural, and ethnic spreads, there will be some areas that are relatively ethnically homogeneous, and many that have very degrees of mixture. And hence how this leads into more diverse artwork: representing such a world with only one ethnic depiction is misrepresentative at best.

So yes, I support more diverse artwork, but not just because it will make some people happier. It needs to be grounded in a deeper appreciation for the diversity of cultures, traditions, and heritages that can and do exist.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Agreed. Or Greek or Spanish or Hungarian or Turkish. The more the merrier.

 

[MrApothecary]

Agreed. Or Greek or Spanish or Hungarian or Turkish. The more the merrier.

Add Finland and I'd be that setting would be fine by me!

 

[Celebrim]

It's wrong for any gamer *not* to love this quote.

Ok, I was going to keep my mouth shut because I didn't react to that quote strongly one way or the other, but that is where I draw the line. My naturally rebellious spirit has just been offended.

...but what i find the most striking about this whole conversation is the number of people who can say "okay, i can believe that there are goblins, and dragons, and that there are men who can shoot fireballs from their fingertips and fight the gods themselves... But black people? Man, that just ruins the illusion for me."

People trot out some variation on this argument in all sorts of contexts. The basic argument here is, "Since its fantasy, why do you find it easier to accept certain liberties than others?" For example, you might see this argument presented as, "If you are willing to accept that the hero can kill a 30 ton fire breathing dragon with a sword, why do you have trouble accepting that he can survive a 100' fall?"

The basic flaw in any variant of this argument is the same. It assumes that what allows you to accept the illusion of fantasy is its adherence to some sort of realism. This is of course not the case. A fantasy setting has implicit exemptions to reality inherent to the setting, and these exemptions are grounded in shared mythic archetypes. Mention as elements of the setting goblins, dragons, and wizards and you can from that readily accept the inclusion of a whole host of associated elements that are part of the common setting, like for example dwarves, giants, magic swords, knights in shining armor, deadly enchantresses, hideous flesh eating monsters, tomb dwelling undead, and all sorts of other things that are drawn from a common English/Celtic/Germanic mythology that runs powerfully in our imagination right back to Beowulf and the Arthurian romances.

To really see how unreflective the claim is, one only has to alter it sufficiently to put it into context, "I can't see how you can say, "okay, i can believe that there are hideous monsters, dragons, hags and heroes sufficient to rip the arms off of ogres with thier bare hands... But a black Dane? Man, that just ruins the illusion for me."

You can't? Really? Is it so astounding that someone finds it jarring to anachronistically insert not merely the occasional 'black knight with unusual background' into the setting, but the whole panapoly of multi-culturalism into the middle of a fantasy setting for what is so obviously purely modern reasons?

There are several other things that bother me about the statement. The first is that its a straw man. "But black people?" is a wholly uncharitable and unfair characterization of the otherside of the argument. I don't think anyone here is objecting to the presence of heroes of a different hue provided sufficient rational is provided for such heroes to be out of thier native environment. I don't think anyone is necessarily objecting to black samurii or black knights so much as the idea that somehow the story needs black samurri or blacks knights and is inherently better for it. I don't think you ought to simplify the thinking of anyone in the thread down to "But black people?", and then just handily slap 'Your a racist' labelling on thier thinking so as to dismiss it.

The other thing that bothers me about it is that it looks like an attempt to be funny. It always irritates me when people misuse humor like that to dismiss and belittle rather than to increase empathy and understanding. It might have been ok for the poster to offer the above as a humorous self-critique. To humorously accuse your fellow posters of racism isn't very funny. There is a very vast difference between Eddie Murphy doing his SNL skits, and someone from say Jeff Foxworthy's background inventing those reutines. Likewise, there would be a vast difference between a Jeff Foxworthy reutine and someone from Eddie Murphy's background inventing such a reutine. As self-parody, both comics reutines are funny to everyone involved while still being able to nudge everyone involved and get them to self-critique thier own attitudes. As a means of belittling some other group, the reutines of both comics would be damnable.

Anyone here who loved that quote because they thought, "It's funny because I am such a racist"? I'm willing to bet they are vastly outnumbered by the people who where thinking, "It's funny because they are such racists!"

 

[MrApothecary]

Why are you over-analyzing that joke so much? Humor is not supposed to be logical, or nice, or any of that.

 

[S'mon]

So what prevents it? What stops you from saying "Well, in this setting the equivalent of the Norse invaders from across the northern straits look a lot like Arabs, and the equivalent of the Anglo-Saxons centuries earlier were really dark-skinned, like Africans, and the inhabitants of the big empire that withdrew from the island right before they showed up were much like the Inca"?

In the context of the fantasy setting, there is absolutely nothing anachronistic about this, because it's not England. It's like England.

This is a good approach - though I'd probably make the campaign setting warmer than England, and the cultures would be a mix of sources rather than "These guys look 100% African, but act 100% Saxon".

 

[Kichwas]

I -DO- find it frustrating to see a lack of diverse artwork in DnD, and it -does- impact my interest in playing the game. Quite often I have to will myself back after feeling pushed away...

It only gets worse when I try, in utter futility, to explain it to the caucasian gamers I know or to these online communities.

Its been my experience that no matter how you try to address the issue of representations of minority-race people in the arts, majority-race people and minority-race people simply cannot see it in the same light.

I found the same problems I see in the states to exist in Asia when living there, with the only difference being which group got put into the 'default assumption' category.

Having a discussion on it invariably leads into hostile feelings as the people on each side are almost never capable of getting outside their own normative assumptions and even comprehending what the other side sees - to an extent. Minority race people are much better at seeing the POV of the majority in the society they grew up in, simply because that majority controls that nature and format of all access to information - even 'minority media.' But this ability to see the other side's POV comes without a real comprehension of how that side relates to it.

...

All of which is a way of trying to say that... no matter how they do it, whenever they put non-whites into gaming products they're going to keep doing it as semi-offensive stereotypes, and there will never be an ability to even communicate to them why it is offensive... And most of the time, it is not done by intent, which makes it even more frustrating. Its one thing to go after someone who's acting badly, its another thing to try and deal with someone who simply cannot know better no matter how well they mean.

 

[Snoweel]

Anyone here who loved that quote because they thought, "It's funny because I am such a racist"? I'm willing to bet they are vastly outnumbered by the people who where thinking, "It's funny because they are such racists!"

Win.

 

[Kichwas]

So what prevents it? What stops you from saying "Well, in this setting the equivalent of the Norse invaders from across the northern straits look a lot like Arabs, and the equivalent of the Anglo-Saxons centuries earlier were really dark-skinned, like Africans, and the inhabitants of the big empire that withdrew from the island right before they showed up were much like the Inca"?

In the context of the fantasy setting, there is absolutely nothing anachronistic about this, because it's not England. It's like England.

Take a look at Guild Wars: Nightfall.

This semi-MMO that came out last year has a north African norm for its setting. Most of the NPCs look African. They kind of remind me of the features of people from Sudan.

In character creation you can a range of skin tones you can pick, from light to dark, for each class. Most of them in the tan to brown range, with a few pale options. Features are decidedly African.

Now log into the thing and look around.

Ignoring the toons that 'ported over' from the 'Prophesies' chapter (which has a Eurocentric theme), 90%+ of the Nightfall-toons people make are blond or red haired, blue or green eyed, and pale skinned... Leaving most of the selection options in character creation untouched.

On launch day, the game was full of complaints about this, and from the people making those choices, complaints that the features on the faces were too African...

To me, that's very telling of a number of different things about gamers.