Racism, sexism, homophobia, jerkism

[Dannyalcatraz]

But these stories I've heard are always offered as an example of how racism has affected someone, (perfectly understandable, though sad), but it's never followed up with, "and then I realized I don't have to worry about that anymore." And really, that is the situation.

No, not really. Sadly, that is not the case.

In his youth, my Dad nearly got arrested as a purse snatcher as he came out of a church service where he had been working as an altar boy. When we moved to Texas in the early 1980s to open his medical practice decades later, there was a (purely conincidental, no joke) impromptu Klan rally on the street corner.

When I was in college in the mid-1980s, I attended a talk by a (white) European photojournalist about his long journey through all kinds of cities & townships in America. His pictures showed all kinds of great things about this country, but also places where segregation was still openly practiced. And I mean with signage indicating which water fountains and bathrooms and even stores where non-whites were not welcome.

At the same time, there were so many people who were openly supporting "former" Klansman David Duke in the Louisiana (my home state) governer's race that he and convicted criminal Edwin Edwards beat out incumbent Buddy Roemer to have a runoff between themselves. And it wasn't until after major companies started weighing in on leaving the state if Duke won that his numbers began to slip. See below.

And even today, I can guarantee you that there are still public places whare I cannot walk in the USA without fearing for my well being simply because I am not white. They are not so common as they once were, but they still exist. Sometimes, entire towns. We call them "sundown" towns- as in, don't be within city limits after sundown, or else.

Even on a less dangerous scale, there are still places where I get followed by store security...when my Caucasian friends do not. Or denied a test drive (or get ignored) when car shopping...most recently in 2003.

The last anti-miscegenation law was not officially repealed until 2001.

I live in the big city and this happens.

And its not a Southern thing, either. Big companies and even states are still getting dinged on this kind of thing. There are currently 3 lawsuits I know of filed post-2005 working their way through the court system dealing with real estate companies practicing commercial and residential redlining (the practice of refusing to show or sell properties to minorities in certain areas) and reverse-redlining (only showing whites properties within certain areas)- and they've gotten to the point that it isn't a question of whether or not it happened, but rather, how extensive the practice is and who is responsible. (IOW, is it company-wide, or just certain regions.)

Commercial redlining can also be seen in lending patterns- Dan Immergluck pointed out in 2002 that small businesses in black neighborhoods still received fewer loans compared to businesses in predominantly white neigborhoods of comperable business density, business size, industrial mix, neighborhood income, and the credit quality.

And that's why these stories annoy me -- they don't give society credit for having come up from that crap. These examples are never given to show how good society is now, it's always to show how bad society has been, (with the subtle hint that it still is bad). Sure, we should never forget the bad of the past, but some won't let the bad go and accept that things have gotten much, much better.

Here, we agree. Like I said, I feel those people are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Their perceptual blinders prevent them from recognizing genuine improvements...and that acts as a speedbump towards further improvement.

Say what you want (elsewhere) about Bobby Jindahl, but the mere fact that he (a non-caucasian) won the governorship of Louisiana IS a sea-change from Louisiana politics from just 25 years ago.

 

[billd91]

But these stories I've heard are always offered as an example of how racism has affected someone, (perfectly understandable, though sad), but it's never followed up with, "and then I realized I don't have to worry about that anymore." And really, that is the situation. And that's why these stories annoy me -- they don't give society credit for having come up from that crap. These examples are never given to show how good society is now, it's always to show how bad society has been, (with the subtle hint that it still is bad). Sure, we should never forget the bad of the past, but some won't let the bad go and accept that things have gotten much, much better.

Yes, they have, in some ways. Yet in others, they've gotten good enough to spark a political backlash and all you have to do is watch the news and you'll see it plain as day.

 

[Orius]

I've heard one or two other politicians make this kind of statement, and I'm suspicious as to the honesty. I mean, to even be in office means they had to personally interact with white people, (including, surely, white women), and then get the majority of their votes from white people. Saying they still feel serious prejudice to the level of having segregation flashbacks to decades ago makes me think they are either delusional or they are pandering.

There's also the effect of gerrymandering to consider, particularly with people who are in the House or similar state-level offices. If they're representing districts that are deliberately packed to have large minority populations, they don't need to worry about winning white votes.

 

[Janx]

I heard an interesting article on NPR yesterday.

Apparently there had been some mass migrations of blacks from America to France. After WWW2 and surprisingly before (like Napolean era).

So something about french culture made them be open and non-racist to blacks.

I'd be curious as to what caused that to work out (not the migration cause, Americans were being jerks, that's obvious). Instead, what caused the french to not be jerks (the WW2 migration was more obvious. Black soldiers helped save France, gratitude helps).

 

[Umbran]

So something about french culture made them be open and non-racist to blacks.

I'd be curious as to what caused that to work out (not the migration cause, Americans were being jerks, that's obvious). Instead, what caused the french to not be jerks (the WW2 migration was more obvious. Black soldiers helped save France, gratitude helps).

History probably plays a part, here. While slavery was an accepted practice in French holdings in the Caribbean, the institution was never officially authorized in the mainland. In 1739, registers for slaves were established in France, and registered slaves were limited to a 3-year stay. Unregistered slaves were considered free. The practice was first outlawed in 1793, and then after Napoleon brought it back for Caribbean holdings, it was finally abolished in 1848.

Basically, use of Africans as slaves was never so institutionalized in mainland France, so the French didn't have that history to overcome.

 

[Starfox]

French snobbery has always been about language, never about ethnicity. If you speak good french and have an inking of french literature and culture, you are french - regardless of skin color. The french themselves are not very homogenous in looks, ranging from blonde to swarthy. Blacks have not had much trouble being assimilated, and France also has a large group of assimilated Vietnamese. What France has been unable to assimilate well are moslems.

While Louisiana was french, there was quite a prosperous cajun group of mixed African and European heritage, who got impoverished and pushed out of respectable society once Louisiana became part of the US. By the same token, french were much better at assimilating native americans than the British or US ever was. Quebec natives fought on the french side against Britain.

My dad once told me an anecdote from the french parliament where general De Gaulle accused a black MP from French Senegal of not being french enough. This black man made a speech that included this (quoting from memory) "Mr president, I am more french than you are. Let me remind you that my town, Louisville, was founded by Louis XIII in 16XX. Your town, Strasbourg, was conquered by Louis XIV in 1681 (later date, under a later king). " True or not, the idea about the quote is to say that a black man form Africa could claim to be more french than the president of the republic and the savior of France, a white man, and do so in a speech before the french parliament in the 1950s.

 

[Janx]

French snobbery has always been about language, never about ethnicity. If you speak good french and have an inking of french literature and culture, you are french - regardless of skin color. The french themselves are not very homogenous in looks, ranging from blonde to swarthy. Blacks have not had much trouble being assimilated, and France also has a large group of assimilated Vietnamese. What France has been unable to assimilate well are moslems.

I suspect this is a contributor to low-grade racism.

As the Avenue Q song says, we're all a little bit racist.

If we ignore the whackjob nazis, white supremacists, etc (like the guy trying to buy up a town in South Dakota), what we got left is small issue racism.

if black people pulled their pants up and spoke intelligibly*, then some % of the population wouldn't feel the inclination to lock their car doors when they walked by.

*This would be the % of blacks that tend to be the stereotype and are in effect, what white people are scared of.

if immigrants chose to learn the national language (there's some dispute over this, but apparently Bill Clinton did sign something to the effect), then some % of the population wouldn't feel like their country is being invaded and colonized by a people who refuse to assimilate (it being ironic that the American continents were colonized that same way).

Here's the clincher. I've seen and heard of many asians coming to America who are so gung ho, they change their names to American ones. That seems really committed to me, and I actually wouldn't ask that somebody eliminate their culture from their personal identity.

And we've seen France try to legislate standards like no headscarves for muslims, and that's pretty much backlashed on them.

I think if the people tried to become part of the community, rather than distance themselves, it would help reduce the racist effect. We'd be less likely to think our neighborhoods and schools are going down the drain when the people value education over gangster culture.

I don't think you can legislate that. That just pushes the people away when you'd like them to join the club. But in turn, it really goes smoother when these disparate groups try to join, rather than isolate themselves and create us vs. the existing environment.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

French snobbery has always been about language, never about ethnicity.

Its worse than that: according to some French people I know, its actually the Parisians who really grind people's gears on language...including their fellow countrymen.

 

[Starfox]

Its worse than that: according to some French people I know, its actually the Parisians who really grind people's gears on language...including their fellow countrymen.

Frenchmen outside of Paris are generally nicer than parisians, true. Paris is a lovely city, but not a friendly one.

Edit: But honestly, I'd say the same of Swedes vs. Stockholmers (Stockholm being the largest city and capital of Sweden).

 

[Janx]

Frenchmen outside of Paris are generally nicer than parisians, true. Paris is a lovely city, but not a friendly one.

Edit: But honestly, I'd say the same of Swedes vs. Stockholmers (Stockholm being the largest city and capital of Sweden).

Which shows that even if we all speak the same language, are from the same country, there will still be some jerks grouped together to pick on the rest.