Ranged Defender: Doable?

[Rechan]

All current defenders can mark at a distance (Even the fighter can use a thrown weapon and mark someone via attacking), even if they can't really benefit from it (The paladin must either attack or be adjacent, fighter can't use his Combat Superiority at range). Only the Swordmage enjoys a distance mark's effects.

So, I think it's feasable to do a Defender who does their defending at range. But how would it look?

 

[Stalker0]

The biggest problem with the ranged defender isn't the mark, its the lack of ranged powers. There is no power that gives a fighter benefits at ranged, so your doing to be pretty suboptimal in terms of attacks.

 

[Slaved]

A Ranged Defender sounds like a Controller.

 

[Rechan]

The biggest problem with the ranged defender isn't the mark, its the lack of ranged powers. There is no power that gives a fighter benefits at ranged, so your doing to be pretty suboptimal in terms of attacks.

Which is why I'm asking if it's possible to build a ranged defender class, not make the current defender classes fit the mold.

What would a ranged defender class look like.

A Ranged Defender sounds like a Controller.

The current fighter is a quasi-controller, since he can pin people down and not let them get past him.

A defender is basically supposed to be able to pin people down and make them attack him Or Else. So a ranged defender would have to be able to make enemies want to come after him/shoot at him, either because of his mark, or because he's too much of a problem over here.

 

[FireLance]

What would a ranged defender class look like.

Well, the paladin and the swordmage have some ability to defend at range. Building on the basic ideas of how these two classes do so, you could have:

1. An archer-type defender who uses his arrows to distract (mark) enemies and has the ability to make a basic ranged attack against marked enemies who attack his allies an as immediate interrupt.

2. An abjurer-type defender whose magic guards his allies and punishes those who attack them.

 

[reticent]

The Druid's Call of the Beast at-will can let a normal Defender fulfill his role at range. That is assuming you can find a Druid who took that at-will of course.

 

[Rechan]

Well, the paladin and the swordmage have some ability to defend at range. Building on the basic ideas of how these two classes do so, you could have:

1. An archer-type defender who uses his arrows to distract (mark) enemies and has the ability to make a basic ranged attack against marked enemies who attack his allies an as immediate interrupt.

I was thinking of this, too. Although my concern is that that's a very powerful ability. The fighter's Combat Superiority is limited by him needing to be in melee range and adjacent (I don't even know if a reach weapon allows a fighter to hit someone who isn't adjacent to him that moves away).

Although this might be on par with the Assault Swordmage.

One thought is that as an immediate interrupt, the Archer Defender gets to make an attack; if it is equal to or higher than the enemy's roll, then he basically 'range parries' the attack, making the attack null and void. Although that's pretty damn potent for an 'every round' thing, especially against something that's doing an area affect.

I also suppose that a ranged defender woudln't be very 'sticky'. Otherwise they're getting in controller territory of slow/daze/etc their target. But then, Paladins and Swordmages aren't very sticky, either; A swordmage is all about bringing the fight to the monster (even if it runs away, he can teleport and chase it down).

2. An abjurer-type defender whose magic guards his allies and punishes those who attack them.

Hmmm. With this type of defender, I could see placing a 'Ward' on your ally; a one-shot Immediate reaction power that would damage anyone who attacks that ally.

 

[DracoSuave]

A Ranged Defender....


...You mean a Charisma Paladin?

 

[Cadfan]

A ranged defender is a controller.

The fundamental trait of a defender is that he channels enemy attacks towards himself. If he is instead negating enemy attacks at range while hiding where he cannot be attacked, he is being a controller. This is because what he is really doing, rather than using debuffs to force enemies to attack him the way a marking power would, is simply debuffing the enemy completely.

I know we're gamers and this is what we do, but everyone seems desparate to sort of out smart the role system by lawyering the exact definition of each role. Its not that complex.

If you absolutely must pretend that ranged debuffs are defender abilities, just play a fey pact warlock with Psychic Lock.

 

[Rechan]

A ranged defender is a controller.

The fundamental trait of a defender is that he channels enemy attacks towards himself.

That is the point, yes. And that is what I would want for a ranged defender. That he does take the punishment. But that he can simply attack foes and do his defendering at range.

I want the monsters to rush the ranged defender. I want them to engage him. It's just being able to do that to a monster half way across the battle mat, as opposed to needing to stop up to it. The defender hiding and not being attacked is counter productive; his job is to to back up and get the monster to come get him, forcing it to pull away from flanking his buddies.

Alternatively, the point is so that the defender forces an artillery or controller monster to focus on him. He's not negating their attacks, perse, he's just forcing the artiller monster to focus fire on him, rather than the others. How a defender makes himself a better target than a weaker ally to a ranged opponent is the point of the mark discussion.

The goal is to funnel the enemy's attacks, the enemy's focus to the defender, and force the enemy to pursue the defender.

This would also remove the issue of a melee defender now suddenly useless against a flying monster.

It also means that the defender can help facilitate the terrain, by say, running behind a pit or around some difficult terrain, and then forcing the monsters to go through the terrain in order to engage him. But the key here is that the monsters do go after him.

I don't want to mess with roles. I just want a defender that is more about bringing the monster to him, rather than going to the monster or not letting the monster get away. Also, one who is not utterly negated by enemies he can't get into melee with. And in order to bring the monster to him, he has to be able to punish that monster for not coming after him/attacking him.

So instead of making the ranged defender's mark an offensive power, or a negating power, I shall use one that makes it a transferring power.

Mark of Sacrifice
If your marked target makes an attack that doesn't include you as the target, it takes a -2 penalty to the attack rolls. If that attack hits, and the marked target is within 10 squares of you, you can use an immediate interrupt to transfer X + Con mod damage from the attack from the target to you.