To my knowedgle that is incorrect. Passive Perception is your situational awareness and is active so long as you are conscious. It is the DC against which someone porperly using Stealth is contesting against to remain Unseen. Search rolls aren't supposed to be in play "at-all-times". They are for if some circumstance makes the ogre belive something "hinky" is happening, and he can use his Action to make a Perception roll to see if he notices anything odd (such as a ranger hiding behind a tree, or the invisible footfalls of an assassin/mage sneaking up on him)
D&D 5E ranger getting caught all of time---What to do?
pukunui
Legend
[MENTION=6791461]Amatiel[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6701872]AaronOfBarbaria[/MENTION]: The rules on passive checks are a little confusing.
The rules for passive checks (PHB, pg 175) says that they "can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster."
However, the sidebar on hiding (PHB, pg 177) states that you make a stealth check "contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence."
Under "Passive Perception", it adds "When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score ..."
So you're both correct really. The general rule is that passive checks can be used to represent repeated activities - like "taking 10" in previous editions of D&D. However, when it comes to the specifics of hiding, a creature's passive Perception is only used to detect someone when it's not actively searching for anyone. Otherwise it's an actively contested check between Stealth and Perception.
The rules for passive checks (PHB, pg 175) says that they "can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster."
However, the sidebar on hiding (PHB, pg 177) states that you make a stealth check "contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence."
Under "Passive Perception", it adds "When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score ..."
So you're both correct really. The general rule is that passive checks can be used to represent repeated activities - like "taking 10" in previous editions of D&D. However, when it comes to the specifics of hiding, a creature's passive Perception is only used to detect someone when it's not actively searching for anyone. Otherwise it's an actively contested check between Stealth and Perception.
BoldItalic
First Post
Hey guys, before we get into yet another "how do you handle stealth" debate, let me say that when in my post I referred to "actively searching", I meant "searching with active dice rolls" as against "contesting stealth with passive perception", because that could have been an explanation for why the ogre spotted the ranger - if he actually rolled for perception and happened to roll very high.
I should have been more precise in my language. My apologies.
For the record, I agree with [MENTION=54629]pukunui[/MENTION] - everyone is right
I should have been more precise in my language. My apologies.
For the record, I agree with [MENTION=54629]pukunui[/MENTION] - everyone is right
Yeah, I'd say this falls to the DM having mobs actively searching and rolling perception, sure rangers are really good at working the scouting role for a party but at that level your not "the stealthiest thing on two legs" even if you have optimized yourself to be so. And I agree with everyone when perception comes in mind, the PHB can be really vague or in some instances, some DMs take their pick of how mobs search. I saw someone comment on the ability to sneak from the terrain and that could come up but I havent seen too many instances where a party would have their ranger scout ahead when there isn't any places to really hide, traveling across a recently plowed cornfield that is 100 square miles in the middle of the day, is (barring invisibility) almost completely impossible and should be conveyed by the DM.
AaronOfBarbaria
Adventurer
I personally believe that @pukunui has pointed out a case when the authors of the rules text ended up unintentionally being inconsistent - specifically because the misunderstanding of what it is that is "passive" in a passive check is a common one, even among the rules authors - rather than a case of an intentionally created specific circumstance under which a passive check is something other than what it generally is.
Because the difference between not looking for anything specific and not looking for anything at all can be difficult to delineate.
(edited for a better fitting word)
Because the difference between not looking for anything specific and not looking for anything at all can be difficult to delineate.
(edited for a better fitting word)
asjwolverine
First Post
So how far ahead and wide should a ranger when scouting? And what should our order of march be? Ranger, two fighters (one polearm fighter), 2 thieves, a sorcerer, and a cleric?
asjwolverine
First Post
Also, the ranger is specializing in the bow. Bonuses?
Really depends on the terrain, general situation (how likely and what you are expecting to encounter), and what means of communication are at you disposal. Could be 30', could be half a mile or more.
Depends on the specific tactics of your group and what you are expecting to encounter. Allowing for some basic assumptions... the following should be relatively sound for general purpose travel: Ranger on point; followed by a fighter and the cleric; sorcerer, with the two rogues flanked out to either side (how far depends heavily on the situation); other fighter on rear guard.
If expecting heavy resistance, you might consider a "wall" of: Fighter, Cleric, Fighter; followed by your rogues; with the ranger and sorcerer in the back.
Try different options and see what works for you. Some general concepts to consider: protect you more vulnerable party members (low ac, low hp); make use of stealth and perception; ensure that if violence is necessary everyone is able to engage targets and assist allies; define the rules of engagement ahead of time; try not to isolate party members and have those scouting ahead and/or to the flanks check in at pre-defined intervals.
asjwolverine
First Post
Very helpful. Thanks
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
You can try to be alert and ready for hidden dangers in general and not specifically searching out a hidden danger known to you. In the event the outcome is uncertain, the former calls for a passive Perception check; the latter calls for a Wisdom (Perception) check. The key thing is you can't be alert to hidden dangers in general and also be doing anything that is at least as distracting as navigating, drawing a map, foraging, tracking, etc. Unless, of course, you're a ranger in favored terrain.
With regard to the initial post, the issue at hand is how the DM is resolving the actions described by the player. If the DM is always going to use the dice to determine the outcome of stealthy activity, then I would suggest investing in resources that will increase the Stealth bonus as high as possible. Multiclassing as a rogue and taking Expertise is a potential option, as is seeking out magic items that grant advantage to Stealth checks such as a cloak of elvenkind. If the DM sometimes rules outright success or failure and sometimes asks for checks based on how the player describes what he or she wants to do, then I would suggest paying attention to and engaging with the environment as described to eke out an advantage by seeking outright success.
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