Ranger Rehash

Sure, I know how it goes. Quality creative exchange is a rarity on most internet boards, well, let alone life! Hope my comments are helpful :)

Btw, I just posted my rough work-in-progress ranger variant: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ighter-and-others-(-quot-Class-X-quot-series)

Skills & Wilderness Expertise: Gotcha. My comment was more about your presentation making things unnecessarily complicated. It sounds like you are giving them 5 skills for free??? Animal Handling, Medicine, Nature, Stealth and Survival? Isn't that a bit excessive? And then on top of that they choose 3 skills from their class skill list?

Instead I'd add these skills to the class skill list, and if you want your ranger to be more of a skill monkey allow them to choose 4 skills (like a rogue).

And I'd make Herbal Poultice its own feature separate from the Medicine skill.

Ranger's Stride: I was thinking of barbarians and monks who get scaling speed bonuses. So yes there can be gnomes and halflings who move at the speeds you describe. I saw you add the speed bonus so I figured you were holding the ranger to a similar bar as the barbarian and/or monk in regards to speed. But speed aside, there's also other scaling you could incorporate, e.g. at level X ignoring difficult terrain from even magic spells and effects.
 

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Well, they need Survival, Stealth, and Nature Lore...at the very least, as a given. The rest just seemed like good ideas/flavorful. The other thing is the 5e format. There are only so many skills a PC gets to choose at character creation.

I didn't want them getting the same number of as the rogue...since that's the rogues thing. Though their "Expertise" only allows a choice of any two + two more at 6th. And get 4 off of a list of 11 [!] for their skill choices. More than any other class by far. Fighters get 2 from a list of 9. Paladins get 2 from a list of 6.

Somewhere in the midst of all that, giving the ranger 3 from the list of 6 and, at least, let's say I knock the WE skills back to 3 (as I currently have 5) to define their "Wilderness Expertise" and make it different from the Rogue's Expertise seems fair.

That's 8 starting skills. Most of which are dictated by the class, add proficiency with them all of the time and double it only when in your preferred terrain type(s)..not OP'd...to me.

The Rogue gets 6 starting skills, 8 at level 6, as well. But
1) from a much wider variety to choose form
2) 2 (and then 4 at 6th level) of which can be anything they want
...and 3) their proficiency is always doubled with those 2 (4) skills.

The ranger has [more than half] their skills chosen FOR them. It is baked into the flavor and assumptions of the class...it kind of has to be, in my view...or they're not rangers. They're just another variety of rogue.

I could knock the default skills back to the 3 mentioned above...let them choose 4 from a larger list...that gives them 7...and they never add more so only "out do" rogues as far as number of skills until the rogue's level 6. But the ranger will never outdo them for skills that get any -let alone double- bonus.

Would that make it less excessive to you?

Does that make sense or am I kind of overthinking/over-complicating this?
 

Ok. Let's see how much more of this I can tackle...hahaha.

Precision Dice: Nothing mechanically wrong with this. However, it's awfully similar to the battlemaster fighter. and you get it at level 1 vs. a battlemaster fighter's level 3! The thing is the battlemaster fighter is all about managing superiority dice as a resource within a single combat, so it's a distinctly tactical approach. I'm not convinced that's the feel the ranger should have. Rangers strike me more as the types to engage in long-term strategies of guerrilla warfare, reconnaissance, outlasting the enemy, etc. The tactical angle of dice recharging after a short rest doesn't feel distinctly "ranger-y" to me. Instead, I would use a damage mechanic that emphasizes the ranger's unique approach to combat: scouting, knowing the enemy, and exploiting their weaknesses. YMMV.

You are quite correct. I was looking for something that smelled like Superiority Dice and tasted like a Rogue's Cunning Action.

But was not, precisely, either. SO it wasn't just a "reskin" of an existing mechanic but something the ranger gets to call their own.
[Something I do consider quite important both from the 5e philosophy perspective and class design, for any system, in general.] They should "feel" and "play" different than other classes. They can be similar...the ranger [paladin and druid and bard] especially because they are a "combo class" to begin with.

That is, they span multiple class abilities without multi-classing. IN the ranger's case, for me, the primary of these are Fighter and Rogue. Other people often [want to] attribute them as more Fighter/Mages or Fighter/Druids. As this whole exercise, from my perspecitve, is to form a mundane [or mostly, no spell use] base-ranger, they seem, to me, to be situated neatly betwee nFighter and Rogue.

So, I thought to myself, I thought, "Self. The Ranger's core mechanic really needs to feel fightery and roguey at the same time. What's the cool Fighter options thing they have that isn't going to steal a base fighter's thunder? The Rogue's?"

Sneak Attack was considered, and has been used for other homebrewed rangers or ranger-equivalents of mine over the years. But ultimately, I feel it is too much the "Rogue combat thing" to really be justified in another class...in 5e.

So, we got Precision Dice. Significantly less options than the battlemaster accumulates, but you have access to all of them, right away, and can spend your dice as seems fit/most helpful for the given situation.

I'm not sure how to convince you of the flavor...a ranger being a specialized fighter/in combat [without relying on Favored Enemy] is completely, in my view, a "tactical"/"decision making" matter. They have the knowledge and skill and stamina to make these choices, on the fly, as the situation requires/arises.

Saying a ranger isn't/shouldn't feel like a tactical fighter reads the same to me as, "a ranger shouldn't have any wilderness skill." It's kind of a given, from my pov.

Ranging Stride: This looks like a feature that should improve with level, at least in terms of the speed bonus it grants.

I'll consider it. That does free up, then, the movement ability of the Warden for something else cooler.

Scrying Adept: Still not sure when "proficiency with any magic item that deals with clairvoyance or divination magic, including spell scrolls, crystal balls, wands of detection, etc" would come into play.

Your party never finds scrolls? Wands? A crystal ball?

Or you mean the proficency/mechanic part? Doesn't spellcasting generally include the proficiency bonus as part of the spell DC? Since these guys aren't, necessarily, spellcasters, doesn't that need to be specified as part of their use of the items/spells?

Guardian - Home Field Advantage: That seems like a major bonus for a class that can already wear medium armor. Hmm. No other class gets an AC-boosting feature that good. I think a Guardian Ranger would have the best AC in the game!

Isn't that a good thing? hahaha.

Guardian - Honed Senses: That seems flat-out OP. Essentially ANY scenario that could involve senses/balance the character gets proficiency in? Shoot, there are so many scenarios I can think of that qualify. Probably too broad of a bonus.

Yeah. I'll admit it. I was at a loss for a second level 3 ability for the guardian ranger and didn't want to delete this from the class somewhere...so I figured the guardian, being kinda more about utility, could find this more useful. But it probably is too much for 3rd level...of course, the PHB (and now, my warden) have Primeval Awareness at 3rd...next to that I don't know how OP this really is.

Guardian - Pass without Trace: OTOH this is a little under-powered. Probably should apply to the whole adventuring party rather than having the number of creatures increase. Say 8 companions and be done with it. These are the sorts of abilities you want to apply to the entire party or not at all.

Makes sense. I could totally see doing this (just making a straight 8 people) and swap it with Honed Senses. Make PwT the 3rd level ability. As a 7th level ability maybe Honed Senses isn't so bad?

Guardian - Forgotten Lore: I like it! Only change I'd make is that "casting from spell books" isn't usually an option for ANY spellcaster. Better to leave that bit out, as it's prone to abuse.

Good point. But if I say "any written form" and the ability is called Decipher Magical Writings...wouldn't casting from spellbooks be a given?

Guardian - Ranger-Knight: One precision die to grant the entire party a +4.5 bonus to hit and +4.5 damage is probably OP given that most parties have characters who can make multiple attacks. Even if you only allowed each character to benefit from this on ONE of their attacks, it is still VERY VERY powerful. Are you balancing this based off a spell or another class' feature?

Not really. Just figured as a 15th level ability, it was ok. It was, funnily enough, a "first attack only" and I took that out. Maybe put it back in and let it be "hit or damage" or damage only or something?

Slayer - Slayer's Fury: I don't think this damage boost is necessary, and actually some added utility would do this sub-class well. Since this is the "monster hunter" build, maybe some sort of boon that you gain from tracking a monster? If I think of something else I'll let you know...

Yeah. I was thinking the same thing. Maybe something about ignoring exhaustion if in pursuit of a favored quarry or something.

Warden - Spellcasting: Nothing in the sub-class flavor you describe seems to indicate they would have access to Wizard spells. I know there's a bit of 1e nostalgia here (and I appreciate that as much as the next gamer!), but I actually think it's anachronistic for the Warden. I think the Guardian sub-class captures the 1e vibe perfectly. If you do agree with my critique, then you may also want to change Warded Step.

This was a tough call...and I was afraid adding the wizard spells in would make it blend with the guardian more than I want. [Thanks again very much for the compliment on the guardian and capturing the 1e feel. That's really what I was going for and, as someone recommended in the other ranger thread, would make that the "default Ranger subclass" a la the Champion Fighter or Evoker Mage.]

You're right though. It should be just druid spells. Or druid and/or ranger spells (since we have a ranger spell list to work off of).

What would you want to change the warded step for? I know it's not a druid thing, really (other than tree stride).But seems very flavorful and useful for someone who is magical and going to be trying to cross distances/deal with magical problems, get themselves into tight spots that need a quick fix, etc... Could rewrite/reflavor it as a Tree Stride, I guess. hmmm...
 

Thinking again on the scrying magic bit...that was originally an "Auto-attunement" to clairvoyance/scrying items...which is pretty much exactly the 1e ranger's thing...but adding the using divination magic made sense as, if you can't track 'em/find 'em/some enemy is hidden by magic...the ranger now has the skills to beat that.

Also, things like Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Detect Traps/Charm/Undead (found in item or spell scroll form) seem like the kind of thing a ranger ought to be able to do/figure out.
 

[MENTION=92511]steeldragons[/MENTION]

Studied Strike: Sounds like we have a conceptual difference of opinion here. No worries :) Go with what works for you.

I have been thinking about what if the ranger's extra damage was tied to opportunity attacks...that would emphasize the he's a mobile character who shuts down other's mobility. Makes sense for a guardian of the borderlands or a hunter of quarry trying to get away.

Scrying Adept: I *think* you're making assumptions based on some older editions. For example, spell scrolls have predefined save DC and attack bonus according to the level of the spell, NOT the person using the scroll. Crystal balls have a predefined save DC of 17.

Guardian - Forgotten Lore: Wizards in 5e cannot cast from spellbooks (in fact, no one can). Why should a ranger? Spell scrolls are considered magical objects, whereas spellbooks are not; narratively, I imagine this to be the spell scroll is a partially cast spell waiting for the finishing words to activate it. Again, seems like you're making an assumption based on a different edition. Easy to do for us experienced gamers, I know.

Guardian - Ranger Knight: To evaluate this feature, consider that the ranger could do this 6 times (since she'll have 6 precision dice at 15th level) in a combat. Thus, a safe point of comparison might be a 3rd or 4th level spell (since full casters get three 3rd & three 4th level spell slots @ 15th level).

If we go with the assumption of a 5 PC party in an average combat lasting 3 rounds, and that the attack/damage bonus only applies to a creature's first attack on their turn, then you're looking at bonus damage = 4.5 (average precision die result) * 5 (No. PCs) * 3 (No. Rounds) = 67.5.

So the question I would ask to determine whether this is balanced is this:

Is there a buff spell of 3rd or 4th level that could grant a 5 PC party about +67 extra damage over the course of 3 rounds?

I don't know that answer offhand.

Guardian - Honed Senses / Pass Without Trace: If you're considering cutting either of these or perhaps merging them, you might want to check out my Borderlands Guard write-up for the "Vigilance" feature.

Slayer - Slayer's Fury: Yes, I think you're on the right track with mitigating exhaustion. Immunity to exhaustion (even circumstantial) is probably a touch OP, but advantage Con checks to resist exhaustion or able to go without food/drink/air for twice as long when in pursuit of the quarry make sense.

Warden - Warded Step: If you do want to replace this, you can look at my example. I took inspiration from the 4e Warden class and gave them a built-in marking ability. I'm not sure about how it works for a ranger though...

OOC: Warden's Wrath: At 11th level, as a bonus action you can mark all enemies within 5 feet of you or one enemy you can see and name out loud. Until the end of your next turn, your opportunity attacks against marked enemies have advantage and do not expend your reaction. If a marked enemy moves toward a creature beside you, the terrain becomes difficult for that enemy, requiring 2 feet of speed be expended for every 1 foot moved.
 

Studied Strike: Sounds like we have a conceptual difference of opinion here. No worries :) Go with what works for you.

I have been thinking about what if the ranger's extra damage was tied to opportunity attacks...that would emphasize the he's a mobile character who shuts down other's mobility. Makes sense for a guardian of the borderlands or a hunter of quarry trying to get away.

Yes. I read your rationale in the other thread. It does work/make sense. And is simpler. But I think I prefer the player option of the Precision dice. Have fun with Studied Strike. :)

Scrying Adept: I *think* you're making assumptions based on some older editions. For example, spell scrolls have predefined save DC and attack bonus according to the level of the spell, NOT the person using the scroll. Crystal balls have a predefined save DC of 17.

Guardian - Forgotten Lore: Wizards in 5e cannot cast from spellbooks (in fact, no one can). Why should a ranger? Spell scrolls are considered magical objects, whereas spellbooks are not; narratively, I imagine this to be the spell scroll is a partially cast spell waiting for the finishing words to activate it. Again, seems like you're making an assumption based on a different edition. Easy to do for us experienced gamers, I know.

This is entirely possible...that i'm just assuming spellcasting stuff based on my own homebrew and not 5e, specifically. And it is...difficult sometimes to remember which is which. hahaha. So, fair enough.

Need to rewrite the Scrying Adept feature to discount proficiency/something else that keeps the flavor...and remove the spellbook business, as that's how 5e does it.

Guardian - Ranger Knight: To evaluate this feature,

-snip numbers crunch, to which that I rarely give any thought-

So the question I would ask to determine whether this is balanced is this: Is there a buff spell of 3rd or 4th level that could grant a 5 PC party about +67 extra damage over the course of 3 rounds?

I don't know that answer offhand.

A "buff" spell? I don't think so.

But a Fireball is going to give you 8d6 to an area. 9d6 in a 4th level slot. So that's...24(27) on average.

Take that per round for 3 rounds would give you <mumble, scratch, scribble, mumble, carry the 14....> 72(81)

In 4th level spells, an Ice Storm is going to drop a hefty 2d8 [bludgeoning] + 4d6 [cold]. Soooo...16 + 24 or average 8 + 12 = 16 (wow that SUCKS for a 4th level spell!). However, you're covering a 40' diameter area (same as a fireball) and all of that turns into difficult terrain until the end of your next turn...so that's something I guess. So, for 3 rounds, on average, 48 HP of damage.

If you want to average those (the 3rd and 4th level damaging spells), we get 72 + 48 = 156 /3 = 60...that's pretty close to 67.

I guess I should make it the first attack only. :o

Guardian - Honed Senses / Pass Without Trace: If you're considering cutting either of these or perhaps merging them, you might want to check out my Borderlands Guard write-up for the "Vigilance" feature.

I wasn't thinking combine them so much as swap their location...and rewrite the senses to be a little less "Win Button."

As for Vigiliance...I kinda thought it was sort of OP, itself. hahaha. Or, at least, immersion breaking...or I'm just not parsing it properly.

At 3rd level you are accustomed to long watches and can benefit from a long rest even while standing watch the entire time. You suffer no Perception penalty when sleeping. Also, add your proficiency bonus to your initiative rolls and when surprised you can still take reactions.

You get rest [and the benefits thereof!] even though you never have to rest...and you have no penalty when you DO sleep? Notice there is no time limit here...talk about leaving oneself open for abuse. A ranger need never sleep....ever. And if they do, it doesn't matter because they are just as alert unconscious as when they are conscious?

AND you are prof. bonus to initiative...AND even if you get surprised, you keep your reactions...without ever having to sleep?!

This seems like 3 or 4 separate abilities, as "in abilities that should be separate", all combined into one. YMMV

Slayer - Slayer's Fury: Yes, I think you're on the right track with mitigating exhaustion. Immunity to exhaustion (even circumstantial) is probably a touch OP, but advantage Con checks to resist exhaustion or able to go without food/drink/air for twice as long when in pursuit of the quarry make sense.

Well, I wasn't thinking immunity. But, actually, reading your ranger gave me the idea to give them a "free [0] level" of exhaustion. So, when they would normally begin to accrue Exhaustion levels, or whatever they get hit with for the 1st one, they can ignore/overlook it. Then, when they would normally accrue a 2nd level of Exhaustion, they are only actually acquiring their first...and so on. So, just a little extra..."oomph" than a different class would have.

Or something like that. ;)
 

Here's version 3...Well, let's be honest...It's the third version I've saved as a version there have been oooooo a few hundred alterations since "v2".

But here it is. Think I actually got a Beastmaster I like enough to allow in a game. Like the final Guardian. Like the revised Slayer (subsuming Favored enemy). Warden is basically the same.

Just need a few stalwart souls to give them some playtest time.

PS: Special thanks and mention goes to [MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] for all of the helpful notes and giving me lots to think [and rethink] throughout this, ideas to borrow, and general inspiration....not saying we're done. hahaha. But it's been most helpful and very fun.
 

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Great! Thanks! After looking/reading through it for hours and days and weeks, the eyes do have a tendency to slip over/past mistakes. Thanks a lot!
 

I dont have time for a particularly detailed response, but the class looks neat! I will say the skills are a little awkward. They are described as stealthy scouts and ambush predators, but don't seem to have the choice of gaining overall proficiency in Stealth (only in their specialized environment) or the perception skill at all. As two core competencies, they should be on the list, if not free.

The ranger is in a kind of odd spot, as you really need a ton of skills to do the "lone wolf" type thing. I don't know if you ever played Call of Cthulhu, but in the old Chaosium system, playing a detective was kind of the same way, where a real world PI would be able to do way more than what you had the points to represent.
 

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