Ranger/Thief backstab question

[Nightfang]

Ok, I have a ranger/thief in my current group, and recently, an interesting situation has arisen that needs answering.

This particular character fights two handed, and has reached a level where he has multiple attacks per round (three, to be precise), therefore giving him SIX attacks in a round.

Now, when he gets flanking, how many of his attacks count as backstabs? In my opinion, once he has done one backstab, the beast knows to protect himself better, but the player thinks he should get the backstab damage on EVERY strike.

This does not sit well with me. He can reduce a high hitpoint monster into a chunky salsa before anything else can happen.

 

[Albereth]

Ok, I have a ranger/thief in my current group, and recently, an interesting situation has arisen that needs answering.

This particular character fights two handed, and has reached a level where he has multiple attacks per round (three, to be precise), therefore giving him SIX attacks in a round.

Now, when he gets flanking, how many of his attacks count as backstabs? In my opinion, once he has done one backstab, the beast knows to protect himself better, but the player thinks he should get the backstab damage on EVERY strike.

This does not sit well with me. He can reduce a high hitpoint monster into a chunky salsa before anything else can happen.

Well first off, where does he get 6 attacks from. At most he can make 4 attacks. Two weapon fighting allows him to make one additional attack per round with his off hand. When he first started out he got 2 attacks. When his BAB got to +6 then he gets 3 attacks, 2 with his primary and one with his secondary hand and when his BAB gets to +11 he gets 3 attacks with his primary and 1 with his secondary weapon. And yes, if he is flanking a legal target then he gets the sneak attack damage on each attack.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You're playing two-weapon fighting wrong.

A character with an off-hand weapon can make one attack with it each round.

With the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat, he can make one additional attack with his off-hand weapon (with a -5 penalty).

So without ITWF, and a BAB of +11, but not including strength/magic/focus bonuses, the character gets the following attacks :

Longsword +9/+4/-1
Shortsword +9

Three iterative attacks +11/+6/+1, with a -2 penalty for using two weapons, and a single off-hand attack at +11, -2 for using two weapons.

With ITWF :
Longsword +9/+4/-1
Shortsword +9/+4

-Hyp.

 

[Orco42]

This does not sit well with me. He can reduce a high hitpoint monster into a chunky salsa before anything else can happen.

Yep the beastie will not last to long sneak attacks are fun.

 

[Nightfang]

Re: Re: Ranger/Thief backstab question

Well first off, where does he get 6 attacks from. At most he can make 4 attacks. Two weapon fighting allows him to make one additional attack per round with his off hand. When he first started out he got 2 attacks. When his BAB got to +6 then he gets 3 attacks, 2 with his primary and one with his secondary hand and when his BAB gets to +11 he gets 3 attacks with his primary and 1 with his secondary weapon. And yes, if he is flanking a legal target then he gets the sneak attack damage on each attack.

I have noticed in my many readings of the PHB it is not written for higher level characters in many cases. Also, the wording is very bad and up for interpretation. For instance, it says if you fight with two weapons you get an extra attack every round with the second weapon.

This, to me, seems very useless to justify picking up all the feats to get rid of your penaties for fighting with two weapons.

 

[Hypersmurf]

As for flanking - yes, I'm afraid if he flanks, he gets his sneak attack damage on every attack.

Suggestions - have his opponents fight smart. Have them fight in back-to-back groups so they can't be flanked. Give them Spring Attack and Tumble and Rogue levels so they can flank him back. And good grief! If someone's hitting you with sneak attacks five times in a round, then take him out first before moving onto his fighter buddy! With all his Rogue levels, he'll be fragile relative to his friends, so remove him from the equation fast!

Obviously not every opponent will use all these tactics. But they don't all have to play to his strengths either.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Ranger/Thief backstab question

For instance, it says if you fight with two weapons you get an extra attack every round with the second weapon.

Why is that badly worded? It's not an extra attack every time you attack with your primary weapon. It's one per round.

It sounds like you've house-ruled two-weapon fighting because youy felt it was too weak at high levels, and now you're complaining that it's too powerful...?

-Hyp.

 

[Nightfang]

Well, my players are in for many shocks this weekend. Finally tired of how quickly my monsters are being chopped up, I re-read the combat chapter three times. Each time, I noticed something I was doing wrong with combat. I have been playing 3ed for 7 months now, and I am still learning.

Another shock they have coming to them is a reset of the loot and magic items they have. Suddenly, their magic items are going to be become normal, masterwork items. I am going to be more careful with the loot distribution, which I have been doing very badly.

Thanks for the input, I am going to show that ranger/thief a thing or two. =)

 

[Nightfang]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Ranger/Thief backstab question

It sounds like you've house-ruled two-weapon fighting because youy felt it was too weak at high levels, and now you're complaining that it's too powerful...?

-Hyp.

Nope, read it wrong and now realize how stupid I feel...

 

[Nightfang]

Now, this multiple backstab stuff is still annoying me. According to what is being said here, when the ranger/thief and the cleric/thief both are flanking the critter, it can have a total of six backstab attempts on it?

Yee Gods!

Where, in any rulebook, does it say they get it on every attack? I am all for once per round, but every attack is a bit much for me to swallow. I know they get it on every attack that the target is denied its Dex bonus, but that still does not help it sit well with me.

Of course, if you have a good argument for/against this, please, put it here, I want all opinions on this.