Ranger & TWF vs. Archery Powers

[Byronic]

I think that using the ability to wield an off-hand weapon while using a bow.. well I don't think it's really what the intention was. If that ever became popular enough I think they'll bring out an errata to correct it.

I think it's really supposed to be meant for two people wielding melee weapons.

 

[Kaldaen]

I think that using the ability to wield an off-hand weapon while using a bow.. well I don't think it's really what the intention was. If that ever became popular enough I think they'll bring out an errata to correct it.

I think it's really supposed to be meant for two people wielding melee weapons.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that a Ranger could have a bow and an off-hand melee weapon, regardless of his specialty.

The point that people have been making is that at the Heroic tier, there's nothing about the Archery-focused Ranger that the Two-Weapon Fighting Ranger can't also have. However, the TWF Ranger does have a feature that Archery Rangers can't get -- the ability to use a melee weapon in the off hand, even if it does not have the "off-hand" property. This will allow them to dual-wield longswords, battleaxes, maces, scimitars, etc.

The TWF Ranger can get the Archer's special ability (Defensive Mobility) just by taking a feat. The Archer can never gain the ability to dual-wield longswords, no matter what powers or feats he takes.

By wielding two longswords instead of one longsword and one short sword, the TWF Ranger can increase his average damage output in melee combat. On the other hand, the Archery Ranger does not have an exclusive feature that makes him better at his niche. To better balance the Archery combat style, a feature that benefits ranged combat would be appropriate -- something that Fighters, Rogues and TWF Rangers do not have access to.

There is already a precedent for this among the other martial classes. Fighters get an extra +1 to attack with either one-handed or two-handed weapons, based on their choice at character creation. Rogues get a +1 on dagger attacks. Giving Archery Rangers a +1 on ranged attacks seems like it fits the theme nicely. When you consider that bows and crossbows get a rather small proficiency bonus to attack, it makes sense to allow archers to have an edge over the other martial classes in ranged combat.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Well, archer rangers do have one big benefit, they will be at range and not in melee. This is not listed as a class power, but it's something to think about. They can move around and shoot, climb somewhere to get perma combat advantage for a fight, and not get wailed on by all the monkeys near the paladin. TWF rangers may have an advantage in the overall dps section, at least in herioc tier, but its on average a difference of 1 point of damage. I think staying at range and living longer to dish out the hurt is more effective.

TWF rangers got toughness cuz they're gonna need it. The are prime targets when they get in melee, lower AC then the defenders and a big source of hurt for the bad guys. Who do you think they are gonna go after? I guess on paper it looks unfair, but once again, I find things go well when actually played.

**Edit** Also, archers only need 1 magic weapon and they are good to go. TWF Rangers are unlikely to have a matched set so half of their attacks are not going to be as accurate/damaging as the others.

 

[SableWyvern]

Well, archer rangers do have one big benefit, they will be at range and not in melee. This is not listed as a class power, but it's something to think about. They can move around and shoot, climb somewhere to get perma combat advantage for a fight, and not get wailed on by all the monkeys near the paladin. TWF rangers may have an advantage in the overall dps section, at least in herioc tier, but its on average a difference of 1 point of damage. I think staying at range and living longer to dish out the hurt is more effective.

TWF rangers got toughness cuz they're gonna need it. The are prime targets when they get in melee, lower AC then the defenders and a big source of hurt for the bad guys. Who do you think they are gonna go after? I guess on paper it looks unfair, but once again, I find things go well when actually played.

**Edit** Also, archers only need 1 magic weapon and they are good to go. TWF Rangers are unlikely to have a matched set so half of their attacks are not going to be as accurate/damaging as the others.

This discussion isn't about whether or not you should build an archery or melee ranger. It's about whether or not an archery ranger gains anything worthwhile from choosing the archery style. You seem to be overlooking the fact that you don't need to take the archery style in order to get Defensive Mobility. Most of the rest of your points have nothing at all to do with what style you've selected (frex, whether you're carrying a bow or two enchanted melee weapons doesn't necessarily have anything to do with which style you picked -- which is the point being made by the OP in the first place).

 

[Kaffis]

Honestly, I don't think there's an imbalance. does the TWF path give more goodies to the ranger than the archery path? Yes.

But if no goodies were handed out, the rangers' powers and whatnot strongly favor archery.

Archery's dealing two attacks with a d10 weapon for all the "make two attacks" powers, and has the intangible benefit of being able to seek sheltered positions from which to fire. The TWF path class feature isn't overpowering TWF, it's making the inherently less attractive option equally attractive for those who decide to pursue it.

As such, I don't think anything's broken, nor is an archery path ranger getting shafted somehow. I mean, news flash, if you're not a TWF path ranger, why do you care how big a weapon you can wield off-hand is? You can just shift out of a threatened square and fire your d10 longbow twice.

 

[Dausuul]

Honestly, I don't think there's an imbalance. does the TWF path give more goodies to the ranger than the archery path? Yes.

But if no goodies were handed out, the rangers' powers and whatnot strongly favor archery.

Archery's dealing two attacks with a d10 weapon for all the "make two attacks" powers, and has the intangible benefit of being able to seek sheltered positions from which to fire. The TWF path class feature isn't overpowering TWF, it's making the inherently less attractive option equally attractive for those who decide to pursue it.

Still missing the point.

The point is this: Let's say you have decided to play a ranger who shoots a bow. You have your choice of the Archery path and the TWF path. What people are saying is that the TWF "path" - that is, the mechanical package including Toughness and improved dual wielding - is superior even if you intend to shoot a bow all the time and hardly ever get into melee.

Many classes have their "paths" hard-wired into their powers. For instance, a Fey-pact warlock gets extra bonuses when using Fey-pact powers. Likewise, an inspiring warlord gets Charisma-based bonuses on some powers, while a tactical warlord gets Intelligence-based bonuses on others. For these classes, there are major consequences to choosing your path.

But the ranger is not one of these classes. Ranger powers are not affected by your choice of "path." The only effect of your choice is to determine whether you get Defensive Mobility (archer path), or Toughness plus improved dual wielding (TWF path).

Were I playing a bow-wielding ranger, I would have to seriously think about Toughness versus Defensive Mobility. +2 AC against opportunity attacks - or 5 more hit points? Considering that most melee opponents will be stuck to the defender anyway, my chief fear is artillery monsters that can hit me from a distance. Toughness will help against those, Defensive Mobility won't.

Then you add in the ability to, in a pinch, drop the bow and whip out two longswords. It isn't going to be useful very often, but if you do get driven into a corner and forced to melee, it's very nice.

 

[SableWyvern]

Personally, I think the simplest solution is to restrict Prime Shot to rangers that take the archery path. A genuine TWF ranger doesn't really need Prime Shot, so I've got no problems preventing them from taking it. I do wonder if it's a significant enough ability to make TWF look less attractive, though. My next thought is maybe to increase the Prime Shot bonus to +2 when attacking your Quarry (+1 in other circumstances, although, if the closest target isn't already your quarry, the ranger would normally designate the target as such before taking the shot). That, IMO, would make the archery path a no-brainer for a character that was serious about being an archer. It may be a little too powerful that way, though.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

I agree -- as it is, if you're creating a archery ranger but don't expect the campaign to go past 10th level, there is no reason to take the archery path. Providing a tangible benefit to having that path prior to Paragon tier would help do something about that issue.

When I first read the Ranger info in the PHB I was kind of skimming, and I assumed that just like TWF style allowed two melee attacks in one action, Archery style allowed you to use the abilities that let you make two missle attacks in one action. I know that was a misreading, but on first pass I somehow got that impression.

I wouldn't actually make that change, since I think it'd nerf TWF's ranged ability pretty hard, but maybe that's an area that can be explored? Maybe something like "If you use Twin Shot (or whatever) with a missile weapon, you can only add your DEX bonus to damage for the first shot, unless you're Archer style"? I don't know. It does kind of mirror the fact that Archery style rangers can Twin Strike in melee, but their offhand weapon isn't as damaging.

 

[Dausuul]

Personally, I think the simplest solution is to restrict Prime Shot to rangers that take the archery path. A genuine TWF ranger doesn't really need Prime Shot, so I've got no problems preventing them from taking it. I do wonder if it's a significant enough ability to make TWF look less attractive, though. My next thought is maybe to increase the Prime Shot bonus to +2 when attacking your Quarry (+1 in other circumstances, although, if the closest target isn't already your quarry, the ranger would normally designate the target as such before taking the shot). That, IMO, would make the archery path a no-brainer for a character that was serious about being an archer. It may be a little too powerful that way, though.

I don't think Prime Shot needs to be made better. Attack bonuses are hard enough to come by in 4E that the +1 from Prime Shot would tip the scales for me.

 

[SableWyvern]

I don't think Prime Shot needs to be made better. Attack bonuses are hard enough to come by in 4E that the +1 from Prime Shot would tip the scales for me.

Thanks for your thoughts.

For the moment, I'm going to go with Prime Shot as written, only available to archery path rangers. But, since I won't be running a D&D game until late this year or early next, I've got plenty of time to wait for a superior solution to present itself.