RANT: Attacks of Opportunity

[Justin Bacon]

Hey Crothian! I understand that point & agree yet whenever you add more attack rolls in any combat (especially with bigger groups) it slows the game down compared to not having them at all.

Really? Is the average damage done by an AoO magically happening elsewhere in the combat without ever making an attack roll? Or have you just moved that attack roll -- which would have been made anyway -- and positioned it mechanically in such a way that it contributes meaningfully to the game?

Yeah, AoOs aren't that hard to understand. I just think that they help to suck the fun out of the game.

Can you be more specific? What "fun", exactly, are the AoOs sucking out of the game?

I was in a discussion a couple weeks ago where someone claimed that they didn't like AoOs because they discouraged people from playing like swashbucklers. But I find the exact opposite to be true: When a swashbuckler gets to the top of a staircase filled with the evil duke's soldiers, why do they run down the banister (Balance check) or leap to the chandelier and ride it to the ground (Jump check)? Because if they tried to run past all those guards, they'd suffer the consequences.

If you remove AoOs from the game, they won't run down the banister or leap for the chandelier -- they'll just run down the staircase, while the evil duke's guards implausibly stand there watching them run past.

 

[Maester Luwin]

Really? Is the average damage done by an AoO magically happening elsewhere in the combat without ever making an attack roll? Or have you just moved that attack roll -- which would have been made anyway -- and positioned it mechanically in such a way that it contributes meaningfully to the game?.

Hey Justin! I also see your point. Yet AoO's are not for everybody. More attacks/ round + increased rolls= more time spent in that combat. That has been my experience anyway. Then my group runs with usually 6-8 people. Do you have less realistic combats without AoO's? Yes. Like I said I have played with them & without them. I had fun both ways. Thanks Maester Luwin

 

[Crothian]

Ps Have you been able to run and/ or play any Thieve's World games? I saw your work on converting TW to D20 before Green Ronnin did it. That was awsome!!! Maester Luwin

Just one shots and other short adventures. I still have yet to find the time for a campaign though. But it is one of two possibilities for the next time I run something.

 

[Crothian]

Can you be more specific? What "fun", exactly, are the AoOs sucking out of the game?

I don't find them that fun because players get too tactical and place too much importance on getting the exact movement to avoid AoO. I've seen games at cons were someone comes up with a really cool idea but upon hearing it would provoke an AoO they change their minds and do something mundane.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

AOOs are not hard or confusing. They just suck. They put players in a tactical 5 feet here, 5 feet there mode which kills roleplaying. Without miniatures, how are you ever sure if you draw an AOO by moving? Was I 10 feet or 15 feet from the guy with the spear? Or 11 feet? They needlessly prolong combat. We once had a sustained battle in a narrow canyon with a train of horses who each got an AOO every time somebody spit. The battle took an hour longer and all those AOOS amounted to nothing. Horses can rarely hit anything after about 5th level or so. If I move 15 feet away and THEN drink a potion, all of a sudden you retroactively get to swing at me. Fighters with no role playing reason whatsoever take ranks in tumble just to avoid AOOS. In his background, he may be clumsy as an ox, yet he tumbles across the floor like the Great Walinda.

It breaks my chain of disbelief to see a pc move in a round about way to get to his foe just to avoid AOOs. And make no mistake, players avoid AOOs like the plague. Otis the town drunk could be lying there with a spoon and my players will avoid him like the plague for fear of losing 1 hit point on a lucky nat 20.

We removed AOOS a long time ago and not one of us (a group of as many as 12 different players - though they're never all here at once) has regretted it.

 

[Crothian]

AOOs are not hard or confusing. They just suck. They put players in a tactical 5 feet here, 5 feet there mode which kills roleplaying.

How does this kill role playing? (And does it take its stuff? ) I am no fan of AoO or minis, but people that want to role play I have noticed never let this stop them. Judging by your post I'd blame the players.

 

[Akrasia]

Can you be more specific? What "fun", exactly, are the AoOs sucking out of the game?

The "good" fun.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

W W C D?

I've seen games at cons were someone comes up with a really cool idea but upon hearing it would provoke an AoO they change their minds and do something mundane.

That sounds like a courage problem to me...

If an action my PC would do would provoke an AoO, I still go ahead and do the act- AoOs are why PCs have high ACs and lots of HP.

What Would Conan Do? Despite being a crafty warrior, if he thinks he needs to charge through a horde of minions in order to get to the BBEG before the "world ending spell" is completed, he'll charge through that horde and trust his superior combat ability (AC & HP) to carry him to his target in relative safety.

 

[Kishin]

I think a lot of the problem people have is that the rules were really badly explained in the 3.0 PHB. When 3.5 was released, I think a lot of people probably didn't reread the entire book, and most likely skimmed the (much improved) new AoO explanations, so didn't get the benefit of them.

But, as the OP says, they're really not that hard. Just follow his summary.

I agree. The section describing AoOs in 3.0 was horrendously worded. I think if people simply give the section in the 3.5 PHB a relatively quick read, it begins to make far more sense.

I like having the tactical element in place, but I do think that there is an irrational fear of the AoO that has been bred iton some people that causes them to go to extreme lengths to avoid them, even if by and large they would be relatively inconsequential. But that, as was stated earlier, is a courage problem.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

But that, as was stated earlier, is a courage problem.

Obviously, if you can avoid damage, you should.

But there are times that you should just suck up the hit.

Brad