RANT: Attacks of Opportunity

[BSF]

One problem is D&D punishes one for trying things there PC is not good out. Many special moves provoke AoO and in some cases a successful AoO makes the move impossible like grapple. So, what at first sounds like a herioc move for the Wizard to fling himself and hug (grapple) the Evil Fighter to restrain him enough for his allies to strike him down becomes almost comical and a little sad as the Evil Fighter takes his AoO, hits the wizard, and then the wizard can't go through with the grapple. That is where I see AoO stop people from doing things with these actions and not so much with movement.

You know, if I had a player ask if he could use that as the flavor text for his Aid Another I would probably allow that.

 

[evildmguy]

My issue with AoO's is not the rules or the idea behind them. AoO make sense to me in that if a person is running past people ready with pointy metal, they should get a chance to attack him.

My problem comes from the metagaming that happens, including most of the examples in this thread.

For me, AoO are only good at less than 5th level, when being hit by the kobold or orc or troll matters because each hit could mean death.

Why shouldn't a fighter with lots of hit points and a high AC risk AoO to get to the BBEG when he will only face four attacks doing 4d8 +some damage? That's nothing compared to what he can take. Again, though, that's metagaming, and that's what I don't like.

Good discussion! Thanks!

Have a good one! Take care!

edg

 

[Justin Bacon]

Hey Justin! I also see your point. Yet AoO's are not for everybody. More attacks/ round + increased rolls= more time spent in that combat.

No offense, but did you even read the post you were responding to?

AoOs do not add attack rolls to the combat, only to any individual round. And the number of attacks made per round is irrelevant to the amount of time spent in combat.

 

[Justin Bacon]

Without miniatures, how are you ever sure if you draw an AOO by moving?

Without miniatures, how are you ever sure if you can attack someone? Or leap over a chasm? Or be caught in the diameter of a fireball?

They needlessly prolong combat.

This is clearly impossible in general and on average.

If I move 15 feet away and THEN drink a potion, all of a sudden you retroactively get to swing at me.

This was conceptually untrue in 3.0, it is literally untrue in 3.5.

(The AoO was always drawn because of the way you chose to disengage from your opponent: You could either disengage carefully and not provoke an AoO, but have no time left to do anything else; or you could disengage recklessly and provoke the AoO, but have time to accomplish something else in the same round.)

Fighters with no role playing reason whatsoever take ranks in tumble just to avoid AOOS.

Fighters have no in-character reason for wanting to be able to move nimbly around a battlefield?

In his background, he may be clumsy as an ox, yet he tumbles across the floor like the Great Walinda.

People who describe their character one way and then stat them up a different way are a problem which has nothing to do with the Tumble skill.

It breaks my chain of disbelief to see a pc move in a round about way to get to his foe just to avoid AOOs.

You don't believe that people in the real world try to stay away from the guy with a giant axe because they're afraid the guy with the giant axe might hit them?

 

[Justin Bacon]

One problem is D&D punishes one for trying things there PC is not good out. Many special moves provoke AoO and in some cases a successful AoO makes the move impossible like grapple. So, what at first sounds like a herioc move for the Wizard to fling himself and hug (grapple) the Evil Fighter to restrain him enough for his allies to strike him down becomes almost comical and a little sad as the Evil Fighter takes his AoO, hits the wizard, and then the wizard can't go through with the grapple. That is where I see AoO stop people from doing things with these actions and not so much with movement.

That cuts both ways: You say it's not dramatic when the wizard throws himself desperately at the Evil Fighter and gets a mailed fist slammed into his face for his trouble while the Evil Fighter gloats at the party's ineffectual efforts to save the princess, but how exciting is it for the players when the goblin horde throws themselves desperately at the fighter who blocks their escape and are mercilessly chopped down by his superior reflexes?

 

[Justin Bacon]

Why shouldn't a fighter with lots of hit points and a high AC risk AoO to get to the BBEG when he will only face four attacks doing 4d8 +some damage? That's nothing compared to what he can take. Again, though, that's metagaming, and that's what I don't like.

I don't consider that metagaming. The savvy, veteran fighter is sizing up his opponents and knows that he'll be able to weave his way through them to reach the BBEG in order to stop the End of the World. Sure, he might cut up on the way... but that's a sacrifice he's willing to make if it will save the world.

A lot of people get schizophrenic over hit points: They know that having lots of hit points means that their characters are really good at avoiding and surviving blows that would devastate normal mortals. But, for some reason, they don't want their characters to behave as if they knew they were uber-skilled, tough sons-of-bitches.

 

[Crothian]

That cuts both ways:

In one case the PC is completely ineffective and that can be not fun. In the other case the PC is dramatically effective which is more often seen as fun. Not the same thing.

 

[brehobit]

100% correct

If you don't like AoOs then fine. But if AoOs stop you from roleplaying then I'm sorry for you that you capacity to roleplay is so fragile. It ain't the AoOs. Its you.

As many have claimed, the whole "minis as wargame" aspect to D&D can kill the roleplaying. As a DM I find it very hard to do the baddies tactics AND roleplay them. It certainly is me, but I'm sorta stuck with me.

And roleplaying, in my experience, IS a fragile thing. But I guess I'm not as good as you

 

[Maester Luwin]

No offense, but did you even read the post you were responding to?

AoOs do not add attack rolls to the combat, only to any individual round. And the number of attacks made per round is irrelevant to the amount of time spent in combat.

Hey Justin! No offense is taken. I do not want it to seem that I am angry or attacking you either. However, you really want to tell me that the number of times you roll the dice & check the results of those rolls with 6-8 plyers does not have anything to do with the amount of 'real' time that is spent in that round of combat?

AoO's are not good or bad in my opinion. I am not against using them. However, I do see them adding to the 'real' time spent in those combats. This has happened in our campaigns. Some people don't mind the extra time it takes while others get bored while awaitng their turn. AoO's have their place in the game & with certain groups but not every group. Maester Luwin

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Without miniatures, how are you ever sure if you can attack someone? Or leap over a chasm? Or be caught in the diameter of a fireball?

A fireball has a 20 feet radius. A very bad dm should be able to describe the combat well enough so you know wether or not you are that close.


This is clearly impossible in general and on average.

This was conceptually untrue in 3.0, it is literally untrue in 3.5.

(The AoO was always drawn because of the way you chose to disengage from your opponent: You could either disengage carefully and not provoke an AoO, but have no time left to do anything else; or you could disengage recklessly and provoke the AoO, but have time to accomplish something else in the same round.)

I wouldn't know about 3.5, we don't play it. But it was NOT untrue in 3.0. A pc may move his movement rate without drawing an AOO from the person he withdraws from (unless he has reach). Then, while 30 feet away he gets hit if he does any other action.

You don't believe that people in the real world try to stay away from the guy with a giant axe because they're afraid the guy with the giant axe might hit them?

Sure, but as it stands, fighters will move away from the wimps to ENGAGE the guy with the axe.