RANT: Attacks of Opportunity

[JRRNeiklot]

How does this kill role playing? (And does it take its stuff? ) I am no fan of AoO or minis, but people that want to role play I have noticed never let this stop them. Judging by your post I'd blame the players.

Because of this:

I don't find them that fun because players get too tactical and place too much importance on getting the exact movement to avoid AoO.I

 

[Crothian]

Because of this:

You will note my post you quoted didn't say a thing about people not role playing. Tactical and role playing are not polar opposites. Do you have any reasons of your own as to why the 5ft mode as you called it kills role playing?

 

[pawsplay]

Attacks of opportunity have been with us since Basic D&D if not before and are easily within the realm of understanding of a young person. They are not complicated, and seem to mainly annoy people who wish they could go anywhere and attack anyone, like in a Final Fantasy game, ignoring the logical outcome that monsters could then do the same and kill the wizard.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

You will note my post you quoted didn't say a thing about people not role playing. Tactical and role playing are not polar opposites. Do you have any reasons of your own as to why the 5ft mode as you called it kills role playing?

Yeah, sorry if I put words in your mouth. IMO, AOOs promote things like "I move 5 feet to the left, 10 feet ahead, 5 feet to the left, then 5 feet ahead to avoid the mooks, then I draw my sword and attack the high priest."

Instead of, "I draw my sword and rush to attack the priest, before he casts his spell!"

Either could work, and you could append that last bit to the first example, too, but the 5 feet, 10 feet crap ruins my immersion.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Attacks of opportunity have been with us since Basic D&D if not before and are easily within the realm of understanding of a young person. They are not complicated, and seem to mainly annoy people who wish they could go anywhere and attack anyone, like in a Final Fantasy game, ignoring the logical outcome that monsters could then do the same and kill the wizard.

I never said monsters couldn't do the same. Besides, the way we do it, you can't just walk by the fighter to engage the wizard. You must do something with him first, either push him out of the way, kill him, or otherwise encapacitate him.

 

[pawsplay]

I never said monsters couldn't do the same. Besides, the way we do it, you can't just walk by the fighter to engage the wizard. You must do something with him first, either push him out of the way, kill him, or otherwise encapacitate him.

Doesn't that just invoke the same kind of scenarios?

 

[pawsplay]

Yeah, sorry if I put words in your mouth. IMO, AOOs promote things like "I move 5 feet to the left, 10 feet ahead, 5 feet to the left, then 5 feet ahead to avoid the mooks, then I draw my sword and attack the high priest."

Instead of, "I draw my sword and rush to attack the priest, before he casts his spell!"

Either could work, and you could append that last bit to the first example, too, but the 5 feet, 10 feet crap ruins my immersion.

If you know the rules, you could say the second and mean the first, and if you're a new player, you could say the second and have other players determine if it's possible.

I stand by the logic that there are scenarios where they answer should be "no."

 

[BSF]

Yeah, sorry if I put words in your mouth. IMO, AOOs promote things like "I move 5 feet to the left, 10 feet ahead, 5 feet to the left, then 5 feet ahead to avoid the mooks, then I draw my sword and attack the high priest."

Instead of, "I draw my sword and rush to attack the priest, before he casts his spell!"

Either could work, and you could append that last bit to the first example, too, but the 5 feet, 10 feet crap ruins my immersion.

"I wisely assess the situation, noting that the minions of the high priest are clustered in two groups with room between them. I smile beneath my helm at their inexperience and dodge to the left then charge forward while drawing my sword, just as they brace for the presumed onslaught of my attack, I cut left again, slide forward and try to slam my sword into the evil smile of that evil bastard who is still covered in the blood of his latest sacrifice. Soon he will wear his own blood because I fight with both heart and mind instead of charging heedlessly into the sorry curs that serve him through fear."

Yeah, it bugs me too when a player breaks it down into move 5' left, 10' forward, 5' left, 5' forward every time rather than tossing out some cool descriptive text. Heck, even once in a while would be fine.

 

[Orcus]

I've played lots of D&D in every system ever created. To me, AoOs were hard to nail down at first and then became old hat (once you parsed through the poorly written text). And then just have that "does the action trigger an AoO" chart tabbed in the PHB and you are fine.

In my experience, AoOs are hardly the problem. Generally, if the PC takes a move that triggers an AoO that he would have been aware of, I mention it to the player--if the PC is combat oriented. Then if they still want to make the move they can. That way they dont have to waste time mapping out every possible AoO. They know if they are going to trigger one that they didnt see that, normally, I will alert them--unless of course it was set up by some ability or something that they wouldnt know about.

AoOs dont cause slowdown. Held actions and poor initiative order record keeping are the true causes of slowdown.

I for one happen to LOVE AoOs. I think they are fun. And I dont find anyone's roleplaying impaired by them at all. We still state our actions in dramatic roleplaying fashion, even if the movement of the mini on the board is on a grid.

Clark

 

[Raven Crowking]

Without miniatures, how are you ever sure if you draw an AOO by moving? Was I 10 feet or 15 feet from the guy with the spear? Or 11 feet?

Did you look at WotC's survey prior to writing/releasing 3.0? One of the things that is very obvious is that gamers who buy minis spend a lot more on average than gamers who do not. So it sort of makes sense that combat in 3.x would use a mechanic that relies upon minis.

AoOs are not terribly hard conceptually (although there is a list of items you have to remember, and unless you have it memorized you probably miss some possible AoOs or allow an AoO that shouldn't have slipped through from time to time). 1e resolved this very same problem by using the DM's judgement.

IME, AoOs seldom come up in actual play, because everyone except the most mindless of creatures does their utmost to avoid them. Yet, here we are, buying minis and plotting out a map for 3 kobolds, just in case.....


RC


EDIT: With all of the rules I changed for my home game, I kept AoOs, so I must see something in them.....however, I champion use of the "DM Judgement" rule for small fights, rather than pull out the battlemat. And, in my rules, you can affect your AC on a round-by-round basis!