D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Maxperson]

It may well have changed from way back when I first learned about it - back then it was pretty much just a tactical war game. Perhaps it was just the way the people I talked to treated it.

There's Battletech the strategic wargame and Battletech(Mechwarrior) the RPG.

 

[AlViking]

There's Battletech the strategic wargame and Battletech(Mechwarrior) the RPG.

That makes sense.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I've noticed a number of those authors have a sense of superiority about their playstyle over the others. It taints any points they may have had.

Agreed. I don't really care for the academic arrogance I read in many of these quoted passages.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I've noticed a distinct sense of superiority about "traditional GM" play, about "simulation", about a bunch of things in this thread.

Stones, glass houses, etc.

Can you provide an example of your accusation?

 

[pemerton]

What "more sim" gaming than me are you doing exactly? Be specific.

I play Torchbearer 2e. When PCs get injured, or sick, their performance of tasks is impeded. When they get exhausted, they are closer to death (without that being on a separate track from the damage track). When they use their skills/abilities, they get better at them. When they lose their gear, they find it harder to perform tasks they require tools or other equipment.

There are other aspects too, but those are some of them.

I play Burning Wheel. In combat, positioning matters and characters can wrongfoot one another. Blocking and parrying of blows matters. Injuries set back those who suffer them; and when someone is (say) struck on the hand or arm, there is a chance for them to drop what they're holding. Armour also gets degraded by combat. And resolution in combat is simultaneous, not "stop motion".

In BW, characters can improve their abilities through training and/or practice. As well as by using them.

In both TB2e and BW, using magic can exhaust a practitioner - that is not necessarily more "realistic", but it does seem closer to the idea that the practitioner is channelling and invoking powerful and dangerous energies.

I play Classic Traveller. Injuries set back the performance of those who suffer them. Characters can improve via instruction. PCs tend to have an age commensurate with their prior experience and hence their training and ability. Resolution in combat is simultaneous rather than "stop motion". Characters moving about in vacc suits have to take care to avoid tears, snags, etc that might breach their suit.

In the past I've played RM (a lot), RQ and other BRP games.

These are the sorts of reductions in abstraction that you say you prefer. I don't doubt your preference. But to me it seems that you're not playing RPGs that would tend to satisfy it.

 

[pemerton]

I've noticed a number of those authors have a sense of superiority about their playstyle over the others.

If you mean that Tuovinen has a sense of superiority about simulationist play, I think that's a bit unfair.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Can you provide an example of your accusation?

Since you didn't ask for one from Max, no, I will not provide one. The burden of proof belongs to those who levy the original accusation.

Not gonna lie, it's pretty characteristic of this thread to demand proof from the second accusation, from the "opposite team", without asking for any such thing from the original accusation.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I play Torchbearer 2e. When PCs get injured, or sick, their performance of tasks is impeded. When they get exhausted, they are closer to death (without that being on a separate track from the damage track). When they use their skills/abilities, they get better at them. When they lose their gear, they find it harder to perform tasks they require tools or other equipment.

There are other aspects too, but those are some of them.

I play Burning Wheel. In combat, positioning matters and characters can wrongfoot one another. Blocking and parrying of blows matters. Injuries set back those who suffer them; and when someone is (say) struck on the hand or arm, there is a chance for them to drop what they're holding. Armour also gets degraded by combat. And resolution in combat is simultaneous, not "stop motion".

In BW, characters can improve their abilities through training and/or practice. As well as by using them.

In both TB2e and BW, using magic can exhaust a practitioner - that is not necessarily more "realistic", but it does seem closer to the idea that the practitioner is channelling and invoking powerful and dangerous energies.

I play Classic Traveller. Injuries set back the performance of those who suffer them. Characters can improve via instruction. PCs tend to have an age commensurate with their prior experience and hence their training and ability. Resolution in combat is simultaneous rather than "stop motion". Characters moving about in vacc suits have to take care to avoid tears, snags, etc that might breach their suit.

In the past I've played RM (a lot), RQ and other BRP games.

These are the sorts of reductions in abstraction that you say you prefer. I don't doubt your preference. But to me it seems that you're not playing RPGs that would tend to satisfy it.

Every one of those things you mention is handled (to some degree) mechanically in the games I prefer. Some of it is through the base system (for example Level Up covers a lot of this), while other parts are houserules I have compiled or created. I don't play official WotC 5e, if that's the assumption you're making.

Now, I don't always get to use all the rules I prefer, because roleplaying is an activity involving people other than myself that have different preferences. But do not make assumptions about my play beyond what I've posted, and if you're confused about something I've said, ask questions, not accusations. You don't know me.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Since you didn't ask for one from Max, no, I will not provide one. The burden of proof belongs to those who levy the original accusation.

Not gonna lie, it's pretty characteristic of this thread to demand proof from the second accusation, from the "opposite team", without asking for any such thing from the original accusation.

IMO, most of the quotes from @pemerton 's preferred game designers read as quite arrogant to me, with an "ivory tower academia" vibe. I didn't ask Max because I don't need to.

Again, anything to back your accusation?

 

[pemerton]

IMO, most of the quotes from @pemerton 's preferred game designers read as quite arrogant to me, with an "ivory tower academia" vibe.

Yeah, what would Vincent Baker know about designing RPGs? Much earlier in this thread we worked out that he's just some internet rando.