D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Maxperson]

I had thought we had settled previously that the GM is bound, by the rules, to respect the rolls a player makes in the open?

Nothing is 100% when it comes to the rules. Very, very, very, very, very, VERY rarely I will ask for a roll and then realize in the middle of the player's roll that I should have just made it an auto success. In those rare occasions if the roll succeeds, no harm no foul. If it fails I will tell the player that I made a mistake and it should have worked, so I'm ignoring the roll and ruling it a success.

If it goes the other way, which happens about once every 3-4 years, I'll give the player the shot at success the roll gave, even though it should have failed.

 

[TwoSix]

From an adventure design standpoint, this is just intended as a means of draining their curative spell resources a bit. From a simulation standpoint, this reflects the real-world fact that places with bad water and rotting corpses tend to make people who go there sick as dogs, or worse.

This is basically one of the many ways the 5e designers indicate they don’t want the game to be based around resource husbandry, but understand they have to keep it because tradition.

 

[Neonchameleon]

But the GM is choosing their moves, correct? Why would they not choose an option that they believe makes the story most interesting?

Because they want a good story not a contrived one. This is why we have principles like "begin, and end with the fiction" and "make a move that follows".

To use an analogy if you set up interesting basic situations then play things sincere even with a couple of caricatures in there (but mostly not) you end up with Ghostbusters. If you always try to be interesting or funny at every point you get Ghostbusters 2016.

Unless the orc has some special move they can use I see nothing that says the kitten blocking the lever would not be a legitimate ugly choice.

Where did this kitten materialise from? If it's just appeared in the scene it feels like bad cheap comedy where nothing matters. If you have the kitten just appear out of nowhere you aren't following the principle of "begin and end with the fiction".

Of course if the ranger's pet kitten has a habit of exploring in both the best and the worst ways then that's a different story.

The torn cloak only makes sense as a hard bargain if it has some value to Brog, if it didn't I see no reason to choose that option.

Well, yes.

 

[Faolyn]

I mentioned threatened areas as a D&D reference.



But the GM is choosing their moves, correct? Why would they not choose an option that they believe makes the story most interesting? The defy danger doesn't give the player the choice, it's up to the GM to decide between the 3 options and how those options are manifested. Unless the orc has some special move they can use I see nothing that says the kitten blocking the lever would not be a legitimate ugly choice. The torn cloak only makes sense as a hard bargain if it has some value to Brog, if it didn't I see no reason to choose that option.

Because that's not how GMing works, even in PbtA. And also because a GM can pick the most logical option and still make the story interesting.

Also, that's right. You probably wouldn't pick the cloak unless it had sentimental value. Or they were in an area with terrible weather and needed a warm cloak in order to not freeze or get soaked. If the cloak was otherwise meaningless, you'd pick something else, such as the orc getting a free blow in (the GM's "deal damage" move), or Brog not being able to prevent all of the Badness from escaping.

This is how an orc is written in DW:

Orc Bloodwarrior​

Horde, Intelligent, Organized
Jagged blade (d6+2 damage, 1 piercing); 3 HP; 0 Armor; Close, Messy

The orcish horde is a savage, bloodthirsty, and hateful collection of tribes. There are myths and stories that tell of the origin of their rage—a demon curse, a homeland destroyed, elven magic gone wrong—but the truth has been lost to time. Every able orc, be it man or woman, child or elder, swears fealty to the warchief and their tribe and bears the jagged blade of a bloodwarrior. Men are trained to fight and kill—orcs are born to it. Instinct: To fight

• Fight with abandon
• Revel in destruction

Orc Berserker​

Solitary, Large Divine, Intelligent, Organized
Cleaver (d10+5 damage); 20 HP; 0 Armor; Close, Reach

Special Qualities: Mutations

Stained in the unholy ritual of Anointing By The Night’s Blood, some warriors of the horde rise to a kind of twisted knighthood. They trade their sanity for this honor, stepping halfway into a world of swirling madness. This makes berserkers the greatest of their tribe, though as time passes, the chaos spreads. The rare berserker that lives more than a few years becomes horrible and twisted, growing horns or an extra arm with which to grasp the iron cleavers they favor in battle. Instinct: To rage

• Fly into a frenzy
• Unleash chaos

Those last two things in each statblock, the bulleted list, are the orc's moves. (You'll notice that they don't have any rolls attached to them. GMs don't roll.) Thus, a GM who is running an orc bloodwarrior or berserker would use the orc's moves--they would make the orc act in ways that allow it to fight with abandon and revel in destruction.

As I said before, the introduction of a kitten has nothing to do with the action of Brog moving past the orc. Therefore, it is not a legitimate complication to rolling low on Defy Danger. Now, you can establish that the orc has a bag of kittens and is yeeting them all over the place to get in the way. But that's the orc move Revel In Destruction or Unleash Chaos, not the result of Brog's move.

But again, this may be part of the issue. You may run it in a specific way. You could do what makes the most sense for the orc but I don't see that as a restriction from the rules. Once the GM has made their move the player decides what their move is from what I understand. If that's not correct I' like to know where that's stated so I can have a clear understanding.

 

[Don Durito]

It takes very little to increase the amount of simulation in it to turn it into simulation as the priority if that's what you want to do, and it takes very little to do the same with narrativism and gamism.

I don't know. I think that's undervaluing the level of work that went into creating Runequest.

 

[Maxperson]

I would say the same is true of Gamism, or Narrativism. Preferences that get in the way of the result being a good game/narrative are at odds with the Gamist/Narrativist approach.

I don't know if that's true of narrativism. Some games are designed around testing character's and the results of play should skew that way. Preferences set up the things to be tested, as well as when stakes are being established, and more that I've seen said around the forum, but can't remember specifically.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't know. I think that's undervaluing the level of work that went into creating Runequest.

I'm speaking specifically about D&D there. I have no idea what went into Runequest or what level of simulation it achieves. Further, you can achieve much more simulation in D&D with some serious effort. I was just pointing out that it takes very little to push simulation to the forefront in D&D.

 

[Don Durito]

Simulation of what?

Action movies? Myths and Legends? Fantasy Novels? The Real World?

 

[Maxperson]

The main limit is that there's only so many 3rd-plus level Clerics of which not all are stay-at-home healing types, and they each only have so many spell slots. They can probably keep up with the usual day-to-day demand - the in-game equivalent of a walk-in clinic, maybe? - but if there's an epidemic or plague they'll be overwhelmed in a hurry.

The middle ground would seem to be to provide a range-plus-default. For poison, there could be a whole laundry list of possible effects; the DM could choose or roll which it is if the module doesn't already say; with the default being the disadvantage effect.

That depends on the DM, really. I like spellcasters to be relatively rare. In my game a shrine to a god will probably have no clerics and maybe a non-magical priest or two. Small temples will have 0-1 clerics(likely 5th level at most) and the rest will be non-magical priests. Mid sized temples will have 1-2 clerics(likely 9th level at most), and the rest will be non-magical priests. Large temples will have 2-5 clerics in them and some could be in the double digits, the rest will be non-magical priests.

Wizards are similarly rare. A large city will probably have 2-5 wizards in it, and some might be double digits. Of course, you can also run into wizards and clerics in unusual locations and who knows how powerful those will be.

Clerics might see to very serious cases, but likely not for free. Certainly they'd not be able to maintain a clinic where everyone was treated with magic.

 

[Maxperson]

Congratulations. We've found a change in 5.5 I like.

Which one was it?