D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

I’m not sure how rare bad GMs are. I’m far more concerned about bad GMing, as in instances of it, which I think are incredibly common. I mean… we’ve all mad bad calls as GMs.

So whenever this kind of topic comes up, that’s the way I look at it. I’m mostly concerned about my own GMing… I want to continue to improve.
I felt games texts like AW have been influential in encouraging designers to spell out their intended GMing practices.

On top of improvements, one can learn approaches that better enact different modes of play.
 
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For sure. There are a lot of mediocre DMs. Mediocre DMs aren't bad DMs and what you and others keep describing are bad DMs.

Perhaps if the examples weren't of DMs calling their players idiots, railroading, ignoring the fiction to zap a pixie into place to cause a fall, we wouldn't think you guys were talking about horrible DMs and argue against that. Those things aren't "not offensively bad."
I have repeatedly given examples, in this very thread, where I spoke about GMs who simply screwed up on something, or did something I considered to be Very Concerning but not overwhelmingly awful.

I was told--by several people, including you!--that either it wasn't that bad and I should just Put Up Or Shut Up, or that if it bothered me, that not-gaming is better than suffering through bad gaming.

In other words, the way people actually talk about it, every time I present "This is concerning, but not automatically a problem, how do I-as-player work with a GM to address it?" I'm told one of two things:
  • You just have to place unending trust in the GM, or
  • The GM has obviously blown past the point of no return so throw in the towel

It took hundreds of posts of back and forth before I could get even one person to start considering techniques for how trust could be re-established if it were banged up a little but not destroyed. Not helped, of course, by the insistent throughline by numerous posters that GMs don't ever need to earn trust nor work to build it, they just deserve it from nanosecond 1.
 

I don't agree with your conclusion, but I think you know that by now 😀

Central appears to be our different ideas about the capacity of DM to be part of the simulative means of play. Seeing as I count DM into 'system' that way, the textual mechanics of D&D suffice.

I also argue that in play someone always must add something more than textual mechanics specify. Whilst armed with a very thorough knowledge of the texts, I have noticed far more detail than you credit. In essence, it seems we have different ideas of what is there and how much is enough.
You're gonna have a real, real rough go of getting anyone talking about "system" in the usual sense to accept that "GM making up whatever they feel like, no rules whatsoever" is a "system."

Because to me that's improv theater with a director. I wouldn't call improv theater a system of any kind. "System" requires some kind of rules. Without rules, it's just...not a system. Even FKR-type stuff still has SOME system, e.g. rules about which kind of dice to use for resolving ambiguous situations.
 


So there we have a problem. You have a set of experiences that indicate that the chances of a breach of the unwritten premises of a game is significantly higher than the chances of a similarly problematic rules dispute. I have a set of experiences that indicate the opposite.

It might very well be that we are the problem ourselves. We appear to both be rules nerds, but we might still have different approaches to how to interact with rules in a social context. In particular it might be we have different relationship to written and unwritten rules.
Perhaps.

It might seem like you find unwritten rules brittle and rigid due to the challenge of communicate around it, while written rules are easy to bending and forming to your needs as you can readily talk around it, and that way build an explicit consensus.
Yes. Unwritten rules are an invisible spider's web trapping me in place. Written rules are a known structure I can climb on, and even better, I and others can actually see when they're going wrong. Because they aren't invisible. They're visible. That's...the whole point. Unwritten rules are invisible, and that has been reiterated quite clearly as being the point. An invisible rule going wrong can't be fixed, because we don't even know it's there causing an issue.

Meanwhile I find the unwritten rules more flexible as any reasonable interpretation of them are generally accepted, while written rules are tight and brittle as their written form works as an outside authority that need to be interpreted and might have different meaning and importance to the various members of the group.
Whereas that's nothing like how I've actually seen unwritten rules applied. Different people come to radically different understandings, but they don't realize this until it's too late to back out, we have to have a long, drawn-out, frustrating conversation where we nail down every single word and detail and tiny little nuance.

For evidence, I present you this entire thread, from first to last.

That is while consensus building is more possible for the written than the unwritten rules, the actual process of building that consensus might be really hard in a group of players that is strongly opiniated about various subtle details in the rules.
Anyone who is so strongly opinionated about rules that they cannot, even in principle, ever accept someone else's interpretation isn't someone who should be participating in a game. Period. Doesn't matter what game it is. Anyone who simply cannot accept that they personally are wrong and someone else (whether or not it's someone at the table) is right, is a person who cannot play games. They will be no less a problem with unwritten rules--and I argue they'll be much more of a problem, because when the rule is unwritten, they have a dramatically stronger position to argue that their interpretation is right--because there is no evidence, no public knowledge to draw upon.

I do recognise that this category of people might be in a minority. Me and both of my brothers happens to be so, which mean I have likely been exposed to the issue a lot more than average. I have had clashes with other players as well, so my family is not unique. But that means that if you yourself are quite lentinent and accepting about what rules are at play, and how they are interpreted, (as long as they are explicit and written down) it might not be so surprising you have not found yourself at a table where this type of situation has been a problem.
I just don't understand how rules no one can see makes conversation any easier. If the rules can't be seen, if they're genuinely invisible to us ("invisible rulebooks" being an FKR staple phrase, very much equivalent to the staple phrases of PbtA that so many in this thread love to hate on), two different people can have radically different interpretations and both have equal claim to being right. Worse, they can believe they actually do agree on critical elements when they simply do not...and thus get into far more acrimonious arguments because they misinterpret one another's intentions by thinking that when each of them says "A", person 1 means <X> and person 2 means <Y>, where X and Y can be almost anything--even diametric opposites. Purely dumping all of that into unspoken, and in many cases unspeakable, restrictions might smooth away small disagreements when the details aren't too important. But hey will magnify disagreements when the details matter immensely. If any group on God's green Earth is maximally obsessed with the nitty-gritty details, it's RPG players.

I say that rather than "TTRPG" because I'm including MMO players. A famous--perhaps notorious--joke amongst both D&D and MMO players is, if you want correct information online, don't ask a question because you'll be ignored. Instead, post something which is confidently incorrect. Within minutes you'll have a swarm of angry commenters correcting you with extensive, and often shockingly accurate, information. (Or, if you're familiar with the online war-simulation games "War Thunder" and "World of Tanks", they have become notorious for having players that leak classified military documents in order to "prove" that the developers of said games have falsely depicted the characteristics of some particular vehicle.)
 

So, when magical pixies cause the character to fall or succeed that climb check, that's 100% in keeping with sim play because the DM says it? Since the DM cannot be wrong, then any narration I choose must be right.

Does make running sim games really, really easy I suppose.
The DM tells you what your senses reveal. He is your access to the world. The rules are a combination of childhood experience and adult training. The DM is reality. The rules are observed reality as best "society" knows it. The DM can change anything at any time. Of course, the difference between the good DMs and the bad ones are how effectively they do this.

I 100% agree with this. Which means that for simulationist play, we need written rules that actually SIMULATE something. IOW, they have to provide any information about how a result was achieved. Otherwise, it's just magic pixies all over the place. See, in actual sim systems, my magic pixies narration don't work because that would contradict the information provided by the system. But, since D&D provides no information, then any narration is 100% equal.
No we don't. We need an acceptable DM. It may help to have some rules of course but rules "cannot" simulate a world. At some point the DM has to make a judgment. The group lives with that judgment until they cannot. For me, my players have lived with it rather well but I realize some DMs are really bad and then you just leave.
 


I feel that in some ways the tightness of a little of rules in many traditional games both restricts the GM heavily (and the players of course) and it is why you have the safety valve that ends up giving the GM the power to override any rules.

In a game with more narrative rules (I'm not going to say narrativist because there an awful lot of games out there these days like the 2d20 games that are somewhat hybrids), it's often the case that the results of abilites or action have to fit the fiction - this in itself means that the outcomes are often able to be more open while also avoiding the need to give the GM the safety valve of overriding the rules. (Which of course is not a good one because it frequently causes table acrimony when applied).

Like the old bag of rats trick with whirlwind attack and cleave in 3e. The defence against that in 3e was the GM saying no and overriding the rules. The defence against that in a more narrative game is that it makes no sense in the fiction (and because the rules are more open it doesn't make any sense to find a loophole to exploit - it would just be a player describing how their character murders a lot of rats.).
Ok, I think you are here talking about a very different phenomenon than most defending GM freedom from rules does. The whirlwind attack + great cleave + an object producing a swarm of nearby creatures could easily be a unfortunate combo in a TCG, LCG or modular board game as well. These kind of exploits happen regularly in those domains, and are typically reasonably well community handled after the first period of disruption. The GM position might make resolving these kind of issues a bit smoother than without, but I am not aware of anyone arguing it is essential for this purpose.

The freedom from rules argument typically point out that there are limitations on the outcomes prescribed by the more "narrative rules". While they are allowing for some flexibility in interpretation/implementation, they still typically produces stronger restriction on narration than what the "unbound by rules (but not unwritten social conventions)" GM would face. So the claim is that such a GM could in some cases have produce a "better" experience for the group than what the narrative rules allow. A popular example of this, that has been a major focus of this thread, is the freedom of the GM to allow the players to keep initiative and control over the overall situation on a bad roll. ("Nothing happens", as opposed to being required to introduce something that moves things along)
 

The problem is when you have people that have been taught that player has the right to do that.
If it is the DM, they do have the right to that power. I'd argue you are borderline leaving D&D without it. You definitely aren't playing the game the founders envisioned. And honestly I don't care what other people do but for me I don't want it any other way as a player or DM.
 

The DM tells you what your senses reveal. He is your access to the world. The rules are a combination of childhood experience and adult training. The DM is reality. The rules are observed reality as best "society" knows it. The DM can change anything at any time. Of course, the difference between the good DMs and the bad ones are how effectively they do this.
If the DM is reality, how can they ever be wrong? By definition, anything they say must be correct. Period. End of discussion. There cannot be anything else.

No we don't. We need an acceptable DM. It may help to have some rules of course but rules "cannot" simulate a world. At some point the DM has to make a judgment. The group lives with that judgment until they cannot. For me, my players have lived with it rather well but I realize some DMs are really bad and then you just leave.
You are doing that very thing I just mentioned above, that I was so recently told people don't do: the players must be completely deferential to GM judgment until it flips over to being "really bad and then you just leave".

This is precisely the thing I keep seeing. I'm not inventing extremism here, @Paul Farquhar. It's right here, in plain view.
 

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