D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

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But at a certain degree of scaling up, the constraint can break down - eg exactly how long does someone spend asleep, or eating their lunch? And then the GM has to make a call about the metagame time. And this then risks departing from Sorensen's principle 3, with the GM making decisions about fictional events that are not simply "diegetic" extrapolations but rather imposing a vision. In practice, randomisation (eg "You have a 50% chance to get there before the Mind Bomb goes off") is often used: but this violates Sorensen's principle 4.
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So according to you, the guy who wrote a manifesto on what simulationism is has restrictions so strict that any game that claims to be simulationist can't actually be simulationist? No GM can pre-establish every cobweb, every blade of grass. Every game only exists because there are players who use the rules of the game to resolve uncertainty. Games have to rely on randomization or some other rules mechanism as abstraction of the action in the fiction.

No game could meet your extremist interpretation. That's why the manifesto also talks about abstractions, that play is the focus of the game, that no fictional world can ever be perfectly simulated.
 

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For those of you debating diegetics, and also for those of you debating simulationism and the various other -isms, some questions (or maybe just another bone to fight over :) ):

But first, the scenario.

Recently, a PC in my game was gifted a treasure map via a Deck of Many Things effect. I hadn't foreseen this and thus didn't have a map right there ready to rock; but during the week I designed and printed out a map, and gave it as a physical object to the player next session; who then showed it to all the other players at the table and lots of other characters in the fiction during post-adventure downtime. They're running a small village worth of characters right now, so the players split 'em up with one group "A" doing the adventure I'm running now while the other group "B" goes off with the map's owner, seeking the treasure. This happens simultaneously in the fiction but consecutively at the table, I'll run group B once group A are done.

So - is the map diegetic because I printed it out for the player(s)? Would it be had I not printed it out but just described it and let the player(s) try to draw it from my description?

Is it simulationist or gamist or what that I printed out the map? Or that the map exists in the fiction at all?

Having the player whose PC got the map design it would IMO run smack into Czege; so is it acceptable that I-as-DM designed it?

What's you lot's take on this?

I don't see why it wouldn't be simulationist. Someone always has to author details about the fictional world, if they didn't it wouldn't be anything to simulate. Level of detail is nice with a printed map but there's nothing non-diegetic about it, the map existed in the fiction, the characters could look at the map.
 

And I am in the same position with respect to hp attrition combat and stop-motion turn-taking action economy. If we are talking about simulationist mechanics, those mechanics are radically non-simulationist. The former is just a clock, not a model of anything. And the latter violates temporality and causation.
Ultimately all simulation involves doing things that aren't identical to their subject.
 

I don't see why it wouldn't be simulationist. Someone always has to author details about the fictional world, if they didn't it wouldn't be anything to simulate. Level of detail is nice with a printed map but there's nothing non-diegetic about it, the map existed in the fiction, the characters could look at the map.
My proposition is that the map in the fiction is diegetic, whilst the prop representing it isn't.

Rather everyone agrees that the prop is associated with the map in the fiction.
 

The term comes from film, right? Specifically about sound that is heard by both the characters and the audience, rather than just the audience (like a score, or narration, etc.).

It was adopted as an RPG term, by Cavegirl on her blog. The term doesn’t perfectly fit RPGs, and some of the other examples offered in the blog aren’t the best, but Cavegirl does a decent job of explaining her use.
I believe it can fit TTRPGs using the simple formula "things that players can pretend their characters know".

But here’s the thing… as originally used, it is describing something being part of the world portrayed in the film, that normally would not be part of that world. It is the exception. Most film scores and/or soundtracks are not diegetic. They’re separate of, if complimentary to, the story being told. Having music that is actually diegetic is the exception rather than the rule.

As such, it’s not really meant to be used as a term for everything that’s happening in the fiction of the film… the actions of the characters and the events of the film, the story… they aren’t diegetic in the same way as music would be. There’s no need to point out that they are part of the film… they are evidently so.
To me that doesn't matter much. Anything that is diegetic is diegetic regardless of whether it's exceptional. The exceptional just happens to be one context where it makes sense draw attention to it.

What needs a term is something that normally would not be part of the story, but in this case is. That’s a soundtrack or score. The torture scene in Reservoir Dogs is a famous example. The song being part of what’s happening in the scene is an important element for that scene. It’s diegetic for that reason.

But there’d never be a reason to say that Mr. Blonde’s horrific actions in the scene are diegetic… I mean, there’s no doubt of that. Pointing it out seems unnecessary, at best.

The term, as it applies to RPGs, isn’t perfect. Cavegirl’s use is simple and pretty clear, but also doesn’t cover everything.
Well, they start from "Actually taking place or existing in the fictional world depicted" which I agree with, but goes on to assert that "Something can be a game mechanic and also diegetic" which I disagree with for reasons I think I've laid out fairly clearly.

The distinction Cavegirl is drawing between "diegetic" and "non-diegetic" mechanics is better explained through the notion of association between mechanics and diegetic things. That also avoids circular or vacuous reasoning (intended here in a technical, non-pejorative sense). A mechanic can have diegetic consequences for instance (or not). It can contain representations of diegetic things (or not).

Barring parody, I don't suppose that my characters are aware of mechanics. My character for example doesn't say "Hey, I'm going to roll my Strength (Athletics) to climb this wall." Rather they say "I'm going to climb this wall" (or they say nothing, and just set about climbing it) and a mechanic that contains elements associated with diegetic strength and athleticism may be invoked with outputs associated with diegetic climbing.
 

What process?
Establishing something as diegetic or not. Diegesis cannot happen without the audience, so they are a component in the process. It's like an electric component in a TV. It's not part of the picture(diegesis), but is a component in the process of establishing the picture, because without it there is no picture.
 


Establishing something as diegetic or not. Diegesis cannot happen without the audience, so they are a component in the process. It's like an electric component in a TV. It's not part of the picture(diegesis), but is a component in the process of establishing the picture, because without it there is no picture.
In TTRPG, players are (also) the audience. That simplifies things because it means that if the actor knows it, the audience knows it.
 

Adding fluff and detail does not change the essence of the fiction. No author of any book ever fills in exactly every detail. No plans can include everything possible. That doesn't mean that there are no cobwebs in an old ruin, it just means there is no mall kiosk inside my house showing where the exit is. The cobwebs make sense if it's an environment that supports spiders, a map to a building that doesn't have constant visitors does not.



By that definition nothing can ever be diegetic. Watching a movie? It was recorded on a camera and then edited. Reading a book? There was an author, multiple drafts, and editor. No fiction whether it's movies, books, games, have no outside influence.

But these goal posts keep moving on this topic trying to find some angle to say "Nah, you're wrong and so is the horse you rode in on." By your criteria? No game could ever be considered simulationist.
Sure it can.

As noted: diegetic music. You are hearing it. Your assumption is that you're hearing it and the characters are not. But then the narrative actually demonstrates that no, the characters are hearing that music. That's clearly the thing you're doing, also being one and the same thing as what the character is doing.

And I gave an example, albeit from a video game, where a specific mechanic could be diegetic in one case and not in another: Deus Ex and its character JC Denton reading emails (or other computer files), which is done through a menu screen, and the player saving and loading the game, which is done through a menu screen.

The mechanic is functionally identical in each case, apart from changes to shape and location. Some parts are literally identical up to the width of the menu itself and what words appear. It's a menu screen either way. But the former is diegetic, because Denton is in fact interacting with a menu, and the characteristics of that menu are tailored to be what he sees. Same goes for, as an example, interacting with medical or repair bots; you can even see the menu screen objects on their chassis. But, and I should hope this would be obvious, the game menu is objectively not diegetic. JC Denton doesn't have the power to Save Game where he feels like it. He cannot adjust the brightness of his world. He cannot alter difficulty settings. Etc.

Clearly, some mechanics can be diegetic. A lot of them can't be, just like how a lot of film elements can't be diegetic. I wouldn't actually say that cutting and editing is non-diegetic a priori, but it is almost always so. Long "single take" shots are rare because they're exceedingly difficult to pull off well, even though that is actually what humans experience. However, if a film is being recounted as a visual depiction of a story a person is telling, then it can be diegetic to have cuts or skips because that's the nature of human memory. (Or, in the case of something like The Princess Bride, the grandpa is actively "editing" the story down for digestibility for his young grandson, so although the "cuts" are not diegetic for Buttercup and Westley etc., they can be for the boy, because that's the story he's actually experiencing.)

But yes! This does in fact mean that essentially every mechanic used in D&D isn't diegetic and almost certainly can't be made so. That shouldn't really be a surprise. We are still primarily using slight variations of mechanics invented around 50 years ago primarily to let some wargamers get up to some silly shenanigans with swords and sorcery. They weren't meant to be diegetic at all; they were simply meant to be adequate to get useful information across.
 

I dunno. But there seem to be multiple posters in this thread who think that the player having the capacity to be the one who establishes these elements of backstory is at odds with simulation: @Micah Sweet, @The Firebird, @Crimson Longinus, @FrogReaver, I think @Maxperson and possibly @Enrahim but maybe not in light of post 19374.
Not me. A simulation simulates a process that occurs in real life. I would(probably) recognize someone I met a long time ago, so a mechanic designed for wolverine to do the same simulates that.
 

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