D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[JConstantine]

I can't even get into that stuff. I used to watch Anime when I was younger, but I find I can't really get into animated stuff these days

That's a shame. I'm not a fan of anime, myself, but Blue Eye Samurai was really good. Even has what you might consider a wuxia dungeon.

 

[robertsconley]

Hey I meant to ask you this before - as you've used this term in replies to me.
What is a boffer LARP? I know what a LARP is, I'm just not familiar with the term boffer LARP.

A boffer LARP is a style of live-action roleplaying that developed in the 1980s. It gained a major boost in popularity in the late ’80s when Ford Ivey founded NERO in Massachusetts. Thanks to a timely Dragon Magazine article, NERO chapters spread across the U.S.

Ford Ivey pioneered a system of rules that required very little moderation, which allowed for large-scale, freeform events. Due to personal drama and creative differences, rival organizations quickly sprang up. While NERO was one of the largest LARP organizations for a time, it was never as dominant in LARPing as D&D has been in tabletop roleplaying. Also, NERO wasn’t the first organized LARP group.

The Wikipedia article is fairly accurate:

NERO International - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can download the latest NERO rulebook here:

https://www.nerolarponline.com/Link.aspx?=/Docs/Library/NERO%20LARP%20RULES/NERO_RuleBook-9th_Edition.pdf

If you explore this topic further, keep in mind that Europe also has a strong and distinct LARP culture. For a long time, North American and European LARPing developed in parallel. From what I’ve been told, there’s been a lot more cross-pollination between the two traditions since around 2010.

And just to make things more interesting, all of this developed in parallel to medieval/fantasy reenactment, starting with the SCA, which is the grandfather of them all. The big difference between reenactment and LARP is usually plot: LARPs emphasize in-character plots, whereas reenactment tends to focus on historical/fantasy simulation or medieval combat sport. When I was active, we said “plot,” not “story,” because most of the action was improvised live, not pre-scripted.

Anyway, there’s a lot to this topic. I’d be happy to answer any questions I can, especially about how events were run and managed, which you won’t get from the rulebook (which is mostly player-facing).

And for context: if you don’t quite follow some of the points I’ve made about my Living World sandbox style, here’s the “secret code”, a lot of what I do comes from transferring elements of live-action play into tabletop. Especially the verbal and social aspects. In LARP, by necessity, you’re always in character. Even if that character is “Doug the Earth Templar” and not a distinct persona.

Upthread, @thefutilist made a good post about what he thinks it might be like to play in campaigns like the ones I run. He brought up some challenges. One of the biggest in my games is probably the amount of first-person roleplaying. I go “into character” when I speak as an NPC, look players directly in the eye, and expect them to respond in character. Descriptions, die rolls, and system talk are usually sidebars in the middle of those interactions.

It’s not unlike showing up to a boffer LARP event: once things are in motion, people come up to you and start talking in character. They expect you to respond in kind.

 

[Faolyn]

See, this is where everyone is getting it wrong.

I'm NOT CRITICIZING. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the DM generating the content. That's perfectly fine. Of course it is. I am, in no way, claiming that this is a bad thing.

I am saying, though, that it is story telling.

Storytelling as opposed to what? Because I don’t know what the issue is.

Coz a little while ago I ran a one-shot of a Lasers & Feelings hack—and those games are total improv, other than a few die rolls to provide the hook—and everything else was me reacting to the players. I think the only thing I actually created was a room filled with what, in AD&D terms, would be the airy water spell and a bunch of magical fish. And it was the players who had decided on the fish; I just came up with the way they (the PCs) could breathe in it. (“It’s a dry wet” has become memetic in my group.)

But by the end of the session I had a world and backstory for the antagonist, and, therefore, a story. Not a very deep one, but a story nevertheless.

So having content generated entirely randomly and then by 99% player input, in a game chosen by the players, also creates storytelling. Just in case you were thinking otherwise.

I think if you (generic you) don’t want GMs to engage in storytelling, you’re either going to have to rely on AI GMs or play GMless games.

 

[Bedrockgames]

A boffer LARP is a style of live-action roleplaying that developed in the 1980s. It gained a major boost in popularity in the late ’80s when Ford Ivey founded NERO in Massachusetts. Thanks to a timely Dragon Magazine article, NERO chapters spread across the U.S.

Ford Ivey pioneered a system of rules that required very little moderation, which allowed for large-scale, freeform events. Due to personal drama and creative differences, rival organizations quickly sprang up. While NERO was one of the largest LARP organizations for a time, it was never as dominant in LARPing as D&D has been in tabletop roleplaying. Also, NERO wasn’t the first organized LARP group.

I knew lots of people who did this. It was pretty popular among some gamers around here (I never went myself but heard lots of stories)

 

[Faolyn]

Obviously I can't speak for @Hussar.

But speaking for myself, here's one possibility: the GM frames scenes - that is, establishes and presents situations - based on player-determined priorities for their PCs.

And then the outcomes are resolved using methods other than the GM deciding what is most likely or plausible or the "best fit" with their sense of the backstory.

I mean, there are actual RPG rulebooks that talk about how to do this!

So… like most games, then. Because that’s how I’ve run D&D, Fate, GURPS, Monster of the Week, etc.

 

[Bedrockgames]

That's a shame. I'm not a fan of anime, myself, but Blue Eye Samurai was really good. Even has what you might consider a wuxia dungeon.

I am sure it is very good. It is one that I keep hearing recommendations for in my wuxia group and on my discord. There are a few other one people often recommend.

 

[Faolyn]

So unless we play your preferred game ... umm ... game that's not a game ... we're just playing a game? Wait that doesn't work. Let's see. We're just playing a humdrum game and you're playing ... wait ... you're not just playing, you're having amazing experiences. The rest of us are basically playing Candyland. You on the other had are playing THE GAME. Even though D&D and variants have always been what most people play, it's really these other not-games that keep the hobby alive!

It's all so clear now.

Maybe it’s The Game, and we all lost?

 

[robertsconley]

I knew lots of people who did this. It was pretty popular among some gamers around here (I never went myself but heard lots of stories)

The game store owner in my home store complained that the NERO chapter I ran, was stealing his business. I felt bad, but only to a point, because he was one of those owners who would give you his personal opinion on gaming all the time. Most of the players who lived in my hometown grew to dislike him.

But in the 1990s and up to 2005 it was my primary form of roleplaying. Then my wife and I started a family, and I no longer had the time.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The game store owner in my home store complained that the NERO chapter I ran, was stealing his business. I felt bad, but only to a point, because he was one of those owners who would give you his personal opinion on gaming all the time. Most of the players who lived in my hometown grew to dislike him.

There was a grain of truth I think in that I knew a lot of people who were part of our tabletop groups who, once they discovered NERO, were pretty much devoted to it, and didn't have much need for tabletop anymore. But I think this was a case of them finding what they were looking for the entire time. Just like when Magic came out, we lost players and had a harder time recruiting (because Magic scratched a slightly different itch and also didn't have things like prep, you could play it in a tighter timeframe, etc).

What the store owner should have done though was realize a new market was opening up and tried to find things that would have appealed to NERO (I remember watching my friends who were into it prep their costumes and their boffer weapons, it is not crazy for a hobby store to start selling basic supplies for that stuff). Heck the old hobby shops I went to as a kid, would have D&D and RPGs, but also model rockets, model ships, train sets, etc. I used to do model rockets so I would often get my rocket supplies and my RPG supplies at Erich Fuchs (might have the spelling on that wrong, but it was the name of a game shop at our mall in Danvers) rather than Waldenbooks or a comic shop

But in the 1990s and up to 2005 it was my primary form of roleplaying. Then my wife and I started a family, and I no longer had the time.

I imagine this happened with a lot of people who were into stuff like NERO. My memory is they were not usually just day events, but often whole weekends (and some of it almost sounded like camping with cabins, which must have taken a lot of preparation to schedule)

 

[AnotherGuy]

A boffer LARP is a style of live-action roleplaying that developed in the 1980s. It gained a major boost in popularity in the late ’80s when Ford Ivey founded NERO in Massachusetts. Thanks to a timely Dragon Magazine article, NERO chapters spread across the U.S.

Ford Ivey pioneered a system of rules that required very little moderation, which allowed for large-scale, freeform events. Due to personal drama and creative differences, rival organizations quickly sprang up. While NERO was one of the largest LARP organizations for a time, it was never as dominant in LARPing as D&D has been in tabletop roleplaying. Also, NERO wasn’t the first organized LARP group.

The Wikipedia article is fairly accurate:

NERO International - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can download the latest NERO rulebook here:

https://www.nerolarponline.com/Link.aspx?=/Docs/Library/NERO%20LARP%20RULES/NERO_RuleBook-9th_Edition.pdf

If you explore this topic further, keep in mind that Europe also has a strong and distinct LARP culture. For a long time, North American and European LARPing developed in parallel. From what I’ve been told, there’s been a lot more cross-pollination between the two traditions since around 2010.

And just to make things more interesting, all of this developed in parallel to medieval/fantasy reenactment, starting with the SCA, which is the grandfather of them all. The big difference between reenactment and LARP is usually plot: LARPs emphasize in-character plots, whereas reenactment tends to focus on historical/fantasy simulation or medieval combat sport. When I was active, we said “plot,” not “story,” because most of the action was improvised live, not pre-scripted.

Anyway, there’s a lot to this topic. I’d be happy to answer any questions I can, especially about how events were run and managed, which you won’t get from the rulebook (which is mostly player-facing).

And for context: if you don’t quite follow some of the points I’ve made about my Living World sandbox style, here’s the “secret code”, a lot of what I do comes from transferring elements of live-action play into tabletop. Especially the verbal and social aspects. In LARP, by necessity, you’re always in character. Even if that character is “Doug the Earth Templar” and not a distinct persona.

Upthread, @thefutilist made a good post about what he thinks it might be like to play in campaigns like the ones I run. He brought up some challenges. One of the biggest in my games is probably the amount of first-person roleplaying. I go “into character” when I speak as an NPC, look players directly in the eye, and expect them to respond in character. Descriptions, die rolls, and system talk are usually sidebars in the middle of those interactions.

It’s not unlike showing up to a boffer LARP event: once things are in motion, people come up to you and start talking in character. They expect you to respond in kind.

Thank you for this.

I did indeed see portions of a few of your videos and I did pick up on the importance of first-person speaking for your Living World games. I also imagined there were more ideas from LARPing that have been pulled through in the effort to realise the immersive experience for the players.
That first-person speaking is something that does not come naturally to me despite that I do it for our table often enough. It very much depends on the situation.