D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Micah Sweet]

Flattering as it is to imagine that my ENworld posts have shaped Google's AI to the extent that you're conjecturing here, I don't think that's very likely.

The fact is that the idea of railroading pertaining to control over outcomes is not unique to me. It's pretty widespread.

Why do you think you're getting so much pushback?

 

[pemerton]

Funny how that point gets raised pretty rarely.

Amazing how we can have 6,000 posts and not cover everything!

Also what's amazing is that @Campbell posts that sort of thing all the time!

 

[Micah Sweet]

Also what's amazing is that @Campbell posts that sort of thing all the time!

I expect they do. Just haven't seen it here.

 

[hawkeyefan]

But didn't you start this line of discussion by challenging the established idea about sandbox games and why people play them by essentially telling folks that they're lying to themselves? I mean, that's going to cause a response.

Not exactly, no. Where this actually started was when I pointed out that some of the priorities of the Living World/Sandbox folks place a priority on something other than player agency. For instance, if you willfully hide information from the players which then reduces their ability to make meaningful choices, that is reducing their agency. That it's in service to realism or plausibility or verisimilitude or immersion or even player preference is beside the fact.

That's where it started. Folks challenged that position. A few accused me of bad faith. So I clarified... with that clarification being that I don't think that kind of play is as highly focused on the players as many state. At first, I used the terms "player-led" and "GM-led", but that caused confusion... so I've switched to "player-focused" and "GM-focused".

Whether or not anyone is lying to themselves, I cannot say. I would also try to avoid accusing folks of that. I will note that it happened to me in this thread, and you didn't jump in when it did. You probably even liked the post in which it happened!

What I think is happening is that it's a matter of perspective and opinion. Folks have a difference of opinion on the matter. That's really all it is. I've simply been explaining my thoughts and why I believe them. I'll also note that you've not asked other people who've stated their opinion why they're interested in talking about the topic. You even praised a post that was very biased the other way.

All in all, though, Living World/Sandbox play is a perfectly fine way to play an RPG. As I've said multiple times, I often run more trad leaning games like this, most recently this was Mothership. It's not a game type that's alien to me. I've very aware of the way it works.

And the non-traditional crew may not have the numbers, but it's a largely united front that shows in every thread discussing game design in any way to IMO make their pitch, so it certainly reads to me like a valid voting block.

Well, honestly, that may be because several of us have actually played together. So we have shared experiences and when we see someone make a claim about a kind of game with which we may be familiar, and the person speaking seems not to be, we tend to speak up. Which is pretty much the same for everyone on the boards here.

I mean... people are complaining about other people posting with their opinions... on a message board. That seems pretty counterproductive and also pretty petty.

Everyone should be welcome to post their opinions here. Not just the ones that align with the majority opinion.

In a higher-lethality game that connection can be as simple as "We're more likely to survive as a group than as individuals". In other words, strength in numbers.

I suppose, sure. It depends on the nature of the game and what the characters are doing, though.

Indeed. But when (hypothetical numbers here) 20% of the noise in these somewhat-system-agnostic discussions is made by those representing maybe 1% of the overall player base, that to me counts as an outsized voice.

Okay... so this is a problem in some way?

I mean, your kit-bashed homebrew version of 1e is pretty much unique to you and your group... so that's what, 1 out of 246,627 members?

Okay... you should only be allowed to post once a decade!

Thinking in terms of game is looking at an encounter to see if it's easy, difficult, deadly, etc., and how much XP the PCs will get from it. That's not part of the fictional setting. It's a game construct.

I create goals for NPCs, yes. Whether those offer opportunities to the PCs or not depends on what the players pick for their PCs goals and personalities. Sometimes it does. Other times it does not. Those goals are created for the fictional position of the NPC, not with the PC(s) in mind.

I don't see that distinction. Or, I don't care to make that distinction. I'm always thinking of the game. More so than the setting, I'd say. One is a vehicle for the other, after all.

 

[pemerton]

How does one derive this crucible or create a world/setting as needed to present a premise to test? Is it via collaboration or is the GM shifting the story towards this crucible via the failures on the rolls?
Are there specific techniques which are employed to create this question via the setting?

I can talk about what I've done recently (as in, over the past couple of years) in Torchbearer 2e.

When I create setting elements - which are latent situations, as per a couple of my posts upthread - I make deliberate choices that will connect to player priorities. For example, in the game the two most recurrent PCs are Fea-bella and Golin.

Fea-bella:

* is an Elf;

* is a Dreamwalker, which means - as per that class description - that she fled the Elven Dreamhouse when she awoke from a nightmare;

* has a mother she cares for and who cares for her, who doesn't live in the Elfhome but rather in a human village located at the base of the wizard's tower;

* has Beliefs and a Creed that have shifted over time, but have frequently referred to (i) these dark times, in which Elves will need her help, and (ii) the stubbornness and greed of the Dwarves.​

Golin:

* is a Dwarf;

* is an Outcast, which means - as per that class description - that he "could not tolerate the rigid life in the holds and halls of [his] ancestors" (Dungeoneer's Handbook, p 28);

* is an orphan;

* grew up in a Forgotten Temple Complex, among the Explosives Cult, where he has a mentor and also an enemy (also named Golin);

* has Beliefs and a Creed that have stayed pretty constant, and refer to the fickleness of Elves and their needing to be grounded in reality.​

So when I create NPCs who I anticipate playing prominent roles in future situations, I make choices that connect them to these player-determined priorities for these PCs. Thus, when I converted the T1 Moathouse to TB2e, I changed Lareth the Beautiful from being a human to being a Half-Elf.

Around the same time that I made that decision, I made some other related decisions. The campaign had begun with the PCs exploring a ruined wizard's tower (the Tower of Stars), and then later on had involved them exploring a wizard's house, and the haunted caverns beneath it, in the wizard's tower village, and when the PCs returned to the ruined tower and read some of the books in it I introduced information that implied that the wizard of the tower and the wizard of the house were the same person; that this person had been Fea-bella's mother's lover; and that this had resulted in the birth of an ill-omened child, Lareth. Around the same time, Fea-bella's mother sent Fea-bella a message (via Fea-bella's friend, the Elven ranger Glothfindel), which confirmed some of this information.

So when the PCs met Lareth, it was established that he was Fea-bella's half-brother. And then, as I've already posted about upthread, Lareth (i) asked the PCs to help him, in respect of the dealings between his cult and the river pirates; and (ii) goaded Fea-bella about who her father was, first revealing that Celedhring, an Elven barrow-wight the PCs had encountered in the haunted caverns, was Fea-bella's mother's brother (ie Fea-bella's uncle) and then hinting that Fea-bella was the child of an incestuous union between brother and sister (which would explain why Fea-bella's mother had left the Elfhome).

Lareth's request for aid was resolved via social resolution procedures. The goading of Fea-bella was resolved first via opposed Manipulator rolls, which I (rolling for Lareth, as GM) won; and so Fea-bella's player was forced to roll Remembering Nature (an Elven trait). Fea-bella's player succeeded, so she remembered the happy times of her Elven childhood and not any horrible facts about her parentage - so that particular bit of character backstory, and it's possible connection to her haunted dreams etc, remains unresolved.

Turning to Golin:

When playing the old ICE CCG Middle Earth: the Wizards with my daughter, I came across the evil Dwarven character Fori the Beardless. I decided to introduce a version of Fori into my TB2e game - he was travelling on a pirate ship, which the PCs encountered in Nulb, as they wanted to deal with Tolub the pirate captain (given the promise that they had made to Lareth to get the pirate to tithe to his cult). Here's how it played out:

I then decided to introduce my new NPC - the Dwarf Fori came up from beneath the fighting deck, and announced himself to Golin. This is an ICE-authored character (Fori the Beardless - Dark Minions - Middle Earth CCG - MECCG | eBay), whom Google reveals has also turned up on this fan wiki. I had written up Fori as a 5th level NPC Dwarven Outcast after playing a game of Middle Earth the Wizards with my daughter and using Fori to reasonable affect as a sneaky agent.

I was relying on my memory for Fori's looks, and so described a full-face mask including beard. Fea-bella's player conjectured that this might be a Dwarven Forge-Mask. I asked if this was serious, and when told yes called for a Lore-Master test. The test failed, and so I described Fori taking off his helmet, revealing himself to be Beardless, and glaring at the two PCs as he told his tale. Both failed Manipulator vs Manipulator, making them Afraid.

Fori declared that he knew the truth of what had happened to Golin's parents. Golin asked Fori to tell him, offering to cook a great feast in return - but Golin's player failed the test, and so while Fori agreed to this it made Golin Angry that he had to provide a service to get this information.

They then set off in Tolub's galley. Tolub gave Golin use of the (small) galley. The roll for weather indicated that a fog was rising. The base toll for the journey was 1. Fea-bella stood on the fighting deck as a Scout (+1 toll, but her cloak raiment protected her from the fog). Golin was Cook, of course (+2 toll - I'll come back to this).

During the goings on on the dock, I had already rolled a treasure for an appropriate loot drop, and it had indicated "a tool of unknown use". I described a strange tool in the galley - a weird skillet, or perhaps even a tenderiser? - and the Cook test succeeded for Golin to identify its appropriate use, gaining +1D to his test to Cook for Fori. Golin's also foraged, using his instinct, but decided to prepare fresh rations as the Ob was lower. He wanted it to be an impressive meal, and so we agreed this was a +1 Ob. This second Cook test also succeeded, and the meal therefore absorbed the base toll for the journey, and also meant that Fori told his story as he had agreed to: he had known Golin's parents, as part of the Explosives cult at the Forgotten Temple Complex (of Elemental Evil). They had been working on a new concoction, assisted by the alchemist Vaxen (who is Golin's town friend as part of his original PC build - in a prior session it had been established that Vaxen had hosted as guests a Dwarven couple with a young child which would fit with Golin's own age and biography). Fori didn't know whether the problem was with the saltpeter that they used, or perhaps the guano from an underground source (white phosphorous?, conjectured Fea-bella's player), but it went horribly wrong, and the explosion killed Golin's parents and left Fori permanently beardless.

Golin pondered this news, and wondered how to broach the issue with Vaxen next time that he saw him.

So you can see that, in this game, I am using a mixture of setting, and the way those elements are brought into situations; and consequences for failed tests. The way I do things in 4e D&D and Burning Wheel are broadly similar.

 

[robertsconley]

Your players decide to give up the adventuring life and hope to open a shelter for stray dogs in a city they haven't been to.

Sure. First off, assume we're talking about my Majestic Wilderlands. Next, realize that while I wrote a book on one aspect of what I do, I didn't cover everything, and I could talk for hours on this stuff. So if it doesn't seem like I covered something, ask questions.

First,
While "opening a shelter for stray dogs" is in the realm of unlikely but plausible, "going to a city they haven't been to" is highly implausible. The players know they have zero social connections, little information, and thus the work they'll have to do is considerably more compared to places they do know and have connections in.

But hey, let's say they decide to do that. Not only that,let's also put on the table that they're a bunch of ex-mercenaries who managed to capture a king and sold his ransom to the ruling prince of the realm they live in. So, funding and social permission are not a problem.

Incidentally, that describes what happened in one of my campaigns. Specifically, these folks:
GURPS Majestic Wilderlands Update #1

However, instead of a stray dog shelter, they chose to build an inn.

The overview of the campaign is described in these two posts. I never got around to writing the third, but that’s okay because it dovetails into the answer to your question:

The Nomar Campaign Part 1
The Nomar Campaign Part 2

What would be your procedures for generating content?

If it's from scratch, basically what I described in How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox.

For the dog shelter in the city, I’d look at whatever notes I have on the city and start at Step 25:
A Fantasy Sandbox in Detail Part XVII

After that, I have enough sketched out about the city to handle the party going there and doing the research needed to figure out how to set up a dog shelter. Beyond that, what gets fleshed out depends on player choices. I use the techniques I outlined in How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox plus a stack of aides and random tables I cobbled together from Harn, Ars Magica, D&D, Judges Guild, and my own creations.

When I was younger, I would create most of it based on what I thought was plausible, interesting for the party, and consistent with my worldbuilding. But for the past two decades, I’ve used random tables to get me thinking outside the box about what could plausibly exist in a given place.

The only bias is that I keep tabs on what interests the players. So the most detailed prep goes into the stuff I know various players will go for first. For example, in my current campaign, one of the more proactive players is a member of the Cult of Kalis, a blood goddess of assassination. So I make sure any prep I do for wherever the party is headed includes notes on the Claws of Kalis (if any) in the area. Likewise, there's an elven merchant in the group, so I make sure I have notes on local merchants and trade opportunities,because I know he'll be looking for them.


This stems from an observation I had while traveling to major cities for special technical assignments at the manufacturing company I work for. In Chicago, New York, Pittsburgh,walking around surrounded by signs and hundreds of people,what catches my eye? The game store on 33rd Street. Never mind the hardware and lock store on the left or whatever is behind building #13 on the right. The game store is what I focus on.

And players do the exact same thing (most of the time) when visiting a setting pretending to be characters having adventures. When the day comes that a player decides on the spot to open the door to Admore Hardware & Lock Co. or explore #13 33rd Street, then I’ll whip out my dice, make a couple of rolls, and figure it out.


In the case of the Nomar Campaign, the players went to Dorn, the capital of the Principality of Nomar, and spoke to Prince Artos' Chancellor. They showed him the writ Arto gave them, collected some of the reward in coin and the rest as a promissory note. The Chancellor sent them to his clerk, who handled land claims. They picked out the parcel they wanted to use,which was the crossroads marked with an “N” on this map:

Each Hex = 12.5 miles or 5 leagues or 5 hours of walking across level ground.

Why an inn? You’ll have to ask the players,Delvin, Aeron, Durgo, and Kermit,who were still playing. Cei Kerac and Henry Keifer's players dropped out due to real-life commitments. The remaining players hashed it out among themselves before going to Dorn to present the writ. They batted around a few ideas until someone said, “How about building an inn?” That idea gained traction, and everyone voted yes.

Why the crossroads? That was straightforward. There was nothing there, and it would have more traffic than anywhere else in the Principality. Plus, the land belonged to the Prince, so it was his to give.

Once that was all settled, I ended the session a bit early and spent the following week fleshing out my notes on Oxcross, Bellsdale, the Plain of Cairns, and Pineshow.

One of the things I'm curious about is, sandrasan, a living world advocate of some small fame, would prep exciting dog related things but if I'm understanding you then you don't do this? or maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Not familiar with sandrasan. So I can't answer that question. As to what I do, you can ask further questions like you have above. As well as look on my blog. Also if you have something that links to sandrasan I will take a look.

Bat in the Attic

A blog on 40 years of gaming and Sandbox Fantasy.

batintheattic.blogspot.com

I consolidated my Managing Sandbox Campaign posts here

Managing Sandbox Campaign Articles

This is a master index of all my posts on managing Sandbox Campaigns. How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox Note that at the bottom of the post ar...

batintheattic.blogspot.com

I would look at the ones that talk about building a Bag of Stuff

I will get around to doing the same for my world building posts after launching my Majestic Fantasy Realm KS.

I also I have bunch of free downloads that are a diverse collection of finished and semi-finished works.

Stuff in the Attic

h2 style="text-align: center;"> Stuff in the Attic Box of Majestic Fantasy Stuff Majestic Fantasy Basic Rules Version 10 Basic Rules for...

batintheattic.blogspot.com

One thing I would using for building the city the stray dog party is heading too is my Fantasy Demographics article.

https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Fantasy%20Demographics%20Version%201.pdf

Plus my Building a Feudal Setting series.

Bat in the Attic

A blog on 40 years of gaming and Sandbox Fantasy.

batintheattic.blogspot.com

Like I said above feel free to ask further questions.

 

[zakael19]

I can talk about what I've done recently (as in, over the past couple of years) in Torchbearer 2e.

When I create setting elements - which are latent situations, as per a couple of my posts upthread - I make deliberate choices that will connect to player priorities. For example, in the game the two most recurrent PCs are Fea-bella and Golin.

Fea-bella:

* is an Elf;​

​

* is a Dreamwalker, which means - as per that class description - that she fled the Elven Dreamhouse when she awoke from a nightmare;​

​

* has a mother she cares for and who cares for her, who doesn't live in the Elfhome but rather in a human village located at the base of the wizard's tower;​

​

* has Beliefs and a Creed that have shifted over time, but have frequently referred to (i) these dark times, in which Elves will need her help, and (ii) the stubbornness and greed of the Dwarves.​

Golin:

* is a Dwarf;​

​

* is an Outcast, which means - as per that class description - that he "could not tolerate the rigid life in the holds and halls of [his] ancestors" (Dungeoneer's Handbook, p 28);​

​

* is an orphan;​

​

* grew up in a Forgotten Temple Complex, among the Explosives Cult, where he has a mentor and also an enemy (also named Golin);​

​

* has Beliefs and a Creed that have stayed pretty constant, and refer to the fickleness of Elves and their needing to be grounded in reality.​

So when I create NPCs who I anticipate playing prominent roles in future situations, I make choices that connect them to these player-determined priorities for these PCs. Thus, when I converted the T1 Moathouse to TB2e, I changed Lareth the Beautiful from being a human to being a Half-Elf.

Around the same time that I made that decision, I made some other related decisions. The campaign had begun with the PCs exploring a ruined wizard's tower (the Tower of Stars), and then later on had involved them exploring a wizard's house, and the haunted caverns beneath it, in the wizard's tower village, and when the PCs returned to the ruined tower and read some of the books in it I introduced information that implied that the wizard of the tower and the wizard of the house were the same person; that this person had been Fea-bella's mother's lover; and that this had resulted in the birth of an ill-omened child, Lareth. Around the same time, Fea-bella's mother sent Fea-bella a message (via Fea-bella's friend, the Elven ranger Glothfindel), which confirmed some of this information.

So when the PCs met Lareth, it was established that he was Fea-bella's half-brother. And then, as I've already posted about upthread, Lareth (i) asked the PCs to help him, in respect of the dealings between his cult and the river pirates; and (ii) goaded Fea-bella about who her father was, first revealing that Celedhring, an Elven barrow-wight the PCs had encountered in the haunted caverns, was Fea-bella's mother's brother (ie Fea-bella's uncle) and then hinting that Fea-bella was the child of an incestuous union between brother and sister (which would explain why Fea-bella's mother had left the Elfhome).

Lareth's request for aid was resolved via social resolution procedures. The goading of Fea-bella was resolved first via opposed Manipulator rolls, which I (rolling for Lareth, as GM) won; and so Fea-bella's player was forced to roll Remembering Nature (an Elven trait). Fea-bella's player succeeded, so she remembered the happy times of her Elven childhood and not any horrible facts about her parentage - so that particular bit of character backstory, and it's possible connection to her haunted dreams etc, remains unresolved.

Turning to Golin:

When playing the old ICE CCG Middle Earth: the Wizards with my daughter, I came across the evil Dwarven character Fori the Beardless. I decided to introduce a version of Fori into my TB2e game - he was travelling on a pirate ship, which the PCs encountered in Nulb, as they wanted to deal with Tolub the pirate captain (given the promise that they had made to Lareth to get the pirate to tithe to his cult). Here's how it played out:

So you can see that, in this game, I am using a mixture of setting, and the way those elements are brought into situations; and consequences for failed tests. The way I do things in 4e D&D and Burning Wheel are broadly similar.

To provide a similar but different game input:

When you start a game of Stonetop, you present the Playbooks it has to the players, along with the Setting Guide. It has a pretty well defined setting that mixes the goal of improving the small community all characters are tied to in some significant way, lots of looming possibilities of danger, and plenty of potential to accumulate power and glory. During character creation, you deeply link each chosen character to the town, anchor some details of setting (eg: the Blessed playbook is a priest of the Goddess Danu, so they get a set of questions pertaining to themes/practices of worship/relevance to the town/what the office means/etc), build relationships (siblings, children, parents, "who do I have much to teach" all sorts of webs inside of town and out) between NPCs and PCs, and then ask the players what they're excited in exploring about the setting.

The GM takes those interests, looks at all these webs, looks at the chosen backgrounds and instincts (eg: the Stormblessed background who is a living chosen of the lightning god has a very different context from the Sheriff background who is about keeping order), and then builds a starting situation to get the players out of town and into trouble, and start testing all this stuff they've said in creation is important to them; push against Instincts; tug on priorities; dangle opportunities to pursue goals (glory, power, magic, etc); and generally see what happens. The setting is the "rich and mysterious" backdrop for all this, and then at the end of an Expedition when you return home to Stonetop all the obligations of your place in town and those NPCs come calling to present a different side of things.

So it's this back and forth and escalation of threats alongside grounding (or perhaps shaky! Homefront threats are a thing as well) priorities of home that keep testing the character's to prove who they really are, and how that changes. But I think that just like you said, the key is when I pick Dangers or create Threats, they’re tied into the setting but also responsive to ideally something all the characters have identified as important/interesting.

 

[Campbell]

Not sure how much this would help someone running D&D, but for a lot of my games with more conventional systems what I do to find what the characters care about and how they see themselves is we just follow them around for the day. Ask questions about where they go and frame scenes by asking stuff like who helps you get your mind off things? Then we might have a scene where this NPC basically asks them how things are going? Asks them pointed questions. We define relationships with them at rest and have the world ask them how they see it.

This should help establish premise in a situation have little of it. It's basically the first session procedures for Apocalypse World. We get to know the world through the characters basically. Though a day in the life of them.

 

[robertsconley]

I've never met or heard of a DM who creates every encounter, magic item, NPC, etc. the group will ever encounter at the moment of building the setting.

Despite being over 100,000 words, my Northern Marches manuscript for my upcoming Majestic Fantasy Realms Kickstarter barely scratches the surface of what an adventuring party could be sticking their noses into.

Just this little area in the campaign I been running in the MFR

Five Mile Hexes

Started with.

Smoking Bay (Hex 2101)​

The Mountain That Fell created the Smoking Bay and for a century afterwards, pillars of steam rose from the waters and were seen for hundreds of miles away. The pillars of steam have since subsided, but the name remains. The sea bottom is a confusing maze of rubble with many areas unexplored. Many sea creatures have moved in to take advantage of the chaotic terrain to hide.

The Black Marshes (Hex 1905)​

The impact of The Mountain That Fell fractured this region forming the marshes that give the area its name. The marshes are fifteen miles north-south and over fifty miles east-west. The impact left several large lakes connected by a confusing maze of waterways and bogs. It offers a convenient place to hide for those who want keep their activities away from prying eyes. The water is black in color caused by the minerals leeching from the surrounding soil and vegetation.

2003 Castle Blackmarsh​

Pop: 1,294, Human (Ramosian); Ruler: Governor Tyrilas, Elf (Greywoods. M), FTR 4; Market Size: III; Resource: Market; Military: Elves (20 troops): Med. Foot 4; Longbow 8; Horse Archers 6; Hvy. Cavalry w/Bows 2; Humans (60 troops): Light Foot 21; Med. Foot 9; Shortbow 12; Lgt. Cavalry 12; Med. Cavalry 6;

Castle Blackmarsh is the largest settlement in the Blackmarsh region. It was founded over a thousand years ago by the Bright Empire and served as the main port for various settlements and conclaves of magic users. Back then, the governor appointed by the emperor ruled the castle, which was advised by a council of magic users and merchants.

It survived the fall of the Bright Empire and became an independent city-state dominating the settlements along the southern shore of the Smoking Bay (Terrain, 2101). The economic decline caused most of the outlying settlements to be abandoned a century after the empire’s collapse. The mages established themselves in Castle Blackmarsh, forming a conclave in the castle.

They dominated the city-state for several centuries occasionally allying with the other races to defeat common threats. In that time the town's population stabilized and found a small amount of prosperity as adventurers entered the Blackmarsh region searching for viz.

A century ago, an ambitious magic-user named Atacyl Oathbinder (M) maneuvered his way into control of the council. He seized absolute control of Castle Blackmarsh and ruled as a tyrant for several decades. It is rumored that he accomplished this through a strange helmet capable of mind control. His attempt at empire building was thwarted. The rangers from Castle Blackoak (Locales, 1538) retook Castle Blackmarsh with a combined force of elves, dwarves, and humans, along with Blackmarsh exiles.

The elves took control of the settlement and appointed a governor at the head of the reformed council. Castle Blackmarsh, the home of the wizard’s conclave, was the site of many Atacyl’s experiments and magical researches. Even after a century of rule, not all of the levels that Atacyl created have been explored.

Forty years ago, Atacyl reappeared as a vampire magic user and attempted to retake Castle Blackmarsh. He was supposedly destroyed by a band of adventurers, and his base at the old Lanis Lighthouse (Locales, 1802) was purged.

2202 Sunken Treasure Fleet
On the sea bottom, are the sunken remains of the last treasure ships to sail from Blackmarsh before the fall of the Bright Empire. Gold, silver adamant, and sealed arcane coffers with viz lie in the hulls of a dozen galleys and scattered across the seabed. Taking residence amid the crumbling ships is a school of several dozen sharks (2 HD) along with a giant sea serpent. (12 HD)

2203 Inuacus Keep​

Pop: 200, Human (Ramosian); Ruler: Sir Alim Causari, FTR 10, Human (Ramosian, M); Market Size: VI; Resource: Farm; Military: Light Foot 18; Med. Foot 7; Shortbow 10; Light Cavalry 10; Med. Cavalry 5;

This keep is an outpost of Castle Blackmarsh and protects the surrounding farms from monsters moving north from the Black Marshes, as well as Atacyl loyalists located in Jorvik (Locales, 2406). Sir Causari is the leader of a faction that wants to see the elves leave Castle Blackmarsh and restore human rule.

2304 Ruins of Ramat​

Located on Witch Hill several miles from Inuacus Keep (Locales, 2203) are the foundations of Ramat, an old ruined Thothian monastery from the time of the Bright Empire. It was home to a potent holy artifact known as the Spear of Ramat. All records on the monastery were lost after the empire’s retreat. In the present, the young daughter of Governor Causari of Inuacus Keep lost her favorite pet dog while on a picnic near the ruins. The governor will gladly pay an adventuring party to search the ruins for the dog. (see the Ruins of Ramat, from Brave Halfling Publishing.)

---

To this during the campaign.

.2 Mile Hexes

I mapped this area,and others near Castle Blackmarsh, because that’s where the party decided to go at the start of the campaign. I made a rough note that there were humanoid tribes occupying the peninsula east of Blackmarsh. These tribes had been brought in a few years earlier and were being organized by a priest of Sarrath, the god of war and order (lawful evil), who harbored dreams of conquering Castle Blackmarsh. I also noted the presence of an abandoned stronghold built by a group of high-level adventurers about a century after the fall of the Bright Empire (which occurred 500 years ago), during a time when Castle Blackmarsh had been left to fend for itself.

When the party decided to head into this area,drawn by the ruins of Ramat, an abandoned monastery tied to the religion of one of the PC clerics,they heard rumors of kobold raids from the folks at Inacus Keep. This led them to begin exploring the peninsula, eventually uncovering the conspiracy and vanquishing the Priest of Sarrath.

I used a combination of published material and my own work to flesh out the region with the time I had available.

In general, I like to map out stuff as part of my first pass. For the past 20 years, I have been using poetic maps as an outline of what to prepare next.

 

[AlViking]

Not exactly, no. Where this actually started was when I pointed out that some of the priorities of the Living World/Sandbox folks place a priority on something other than player agency. For instance, if you willfully hide information from the players which then reduces their ability to make meaningful choices, that is reducing their agency. That it's in service to realism or plausibility or verisimilitude or immersion or even player preference is beside the fact.

That's where it started. Folks challenged that position. A few accused me of bad faith. So I clarified... with that clarification being that I don't think that kind of play is as highly focused on the players as many state. At first, I used the terms "player-led" and "GM-led", but that caused confusion... so I've switched to "player-focused" and "GM-focused".

Whether or not anyone is lying to themselves, I cannot say. I would also try to avoid accusing folks of that. I will note that it happened to me in this thread, and you didn't jump in when it did. You probably even liked the post in which it happened!

What I think is happening is that it's a matter of perspective and opinion. Folks have a difference of opinion on the matter. That's really all it is. I've simply been explaining my thoughts and why I believe them. I'll also note that you've not asked other people who've stated their opinion why they're interested in talking about the topic. You even praised a post that was very biased the other way.

All in all, though, Living World/Sandbox play is a perfectly fine way to play an RPG. As I've said multiple times, I often run more trad leaning games like this, most recently this was Mothership. It's not a game type that's alien to me. I've very aware of the way it works.



Well, honestly, that may be because several of us have actually played together. So we have shared experiences and when we see someone make a claim about a kind of game with which we may be familiar, and the person speaking seems not to be, we tend to speak up. Which is pretty much the same for everyone on the boards here.

I mean... people are complaining about other people posting with their opinions... on a message board. That seems pretty counterproductive and also pretty petty.

Everyone should be welcome to post their opinions here. Not just the ones that align with the majority opinion.



I suppose, sure. It depends on the nature of the game and what the characters are doing, though.



Okay... so this is a problem in some way?

I mean, your kit-bashed homebrew version of 1e is pretty much unique to you and your group... so that's what, 1 out of 246,627 members?

Okay... you should only be allowed to post once a decade!



I don't see that distinction. Or, I don't care to make that distinction. I'm always thinking of the game. More so than the setting, I'd say. One is a vehicle for the other, after all.

So you start out with the declaration that people who run living world campaigns don't prioritize agency. Then you wonder why you get pushback. I may have a different approach to player agency but I absolutely prioritize it. You have no idea what I, or others, prioritize.

If I didn't think agency was important I'd just run a linear campaign or use a module, which is also a perfectly good way of playing.