D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[pemerton]

I would not "find out" anything about my character other than that I failed or succeeded a die roll. But this argument is just on repeat.

I guess in your games it never happens that, for instance, you discover secret doors, or have people die. You just learn what the numbers are on dice that are rolled.

 

[zakael19]

Somewhere in here we have the simple clash between "games where the character is not merely an extension of you, but modeled separately with the unexpected/unwanted" and "games where I desire to inhabit a character possibly with some wish fulfillment along the way" and then rules that facilitate one or the other desire better.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Wasn't like token play wasn't a fairly common, even popular style early on (the game got its start with wargamers after all), and its hardly extinct. Whether that's a good thing is in the eye of the beholder.



I have to point out there were games in the build-point realm that had personality traits and flaws as part of the core mechanics fairly early on (Hero and GURPS) and ones that still do in the trad realm (Savage Worlds). One difference is that they made them, effectively voluntary (though because they yield indirect mechanical benefits, attractive). I suspect there's a lot of people in the trad sphere who are much more willing to engage with social and psychological mechanics with teeth when they've actively signed off on them.

Absolutely. I've played and run many games like that. As a GM, I expect players to play these traits out and earn the benefits they received. As a player, I play these traits out and earn the benefits I receive.

 

[pemerton]

The D&D examples both involve supernatural fear effects, for one thing.

So? That's just a part of the fiction. It doesn't affect the player's control over the shared fiction. Or even over what their PC does.

Now if you are saying that the only bit of the fiction that you as player want to be able to influence is how your PC feels when not enchanted; and if you are saying that you want your influence over that to be total control; then Burning Wheel is not the game for you.

Absolutely. I've played and run many games like that. As a GM, I expect players to play these traits out and earn the benefits they received. As a player, I play these traits out and earn the benefits I receive.

Is this also system driven? Or does "system driven" depend upon whether it's a component of a point-buy PC build, compared to a general rule that is resolved via a dice roll on an attribute?

 

[AlViking]

When it comes to agency, what decision is made and things like emotional state of a character, the person who decides the truth in the fiction of the game varies. It can be the person playing the character, another person at the table be it GM or fellow player, or it can be the author of the rules. It can be a combination of all of the above.

In D&D the authors of the game decided that sometimes I am not in control of my thoughts or responses because of a spell or supernatural effect. Other situations another player can influence a character in a way that the player of the character has no control over. Other games may cause someone to hesitate because the authors included rules to enforce that.

What flavor is better is completely subjective, there is no right or wrong. If I decide my D&D character is afraid of nothing but women with green eyes, then they aren't afraid unless there's a supernatural effect. Is that realistic? I do not care. Is that better than other approaches? It works better for me but it is not better than any other approach.

Does that about sum it up?

 

[AlViking]

I guess in your games it never happens that, for instance, you discover secret doors, or have people die. You just learn what the numbers are on dice that are rolled.

Discovering something about the world external to my character is completely different.

Edit - in D&D specifically I am the author of my character, not the author of the world around me.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Somewhere in here we have the simple clash between "games where the character is not merely an extension of you, but modeled separately with the unexpected/unwanted" and "games where I desire to inhabit a character possibly with some wish fulfillment along the way" and then rules that facilitate one or the other desire better.

I think throwing in wish fulfillment is unhelpful in explaining the immersive play style. There are certainly styles of play where wish fulfillment can play a role, but I find that is a separate thing from say a person simply wanting to have complete control of their characters thoughts and actions. I do think there are very different approaches here. Some people want characters who are effectively extensions of themselves. They might want to be constrained by POV in the setting, and they might want the character to be different from them in certain ways, but I think a lot of people ar looking for the experience of being in the world. But there are also others who want to inhabit a character, and they develop character immersively, rather than through system. And there are people who want characterization through mechanics. There is nothing wrong with any of these approaches. The problem is when we assign value to one over the other, or use language suggest some are more remedial, less sophisticated, childlike or an attempt to fill some lack in life (anyone spending a large amount of time playing games, can be accused of that).

I do think there are games that engage with power fantasy. But I think that can happen in any of the styles we are talking about. And there isn't anything wrong with it. Some folks blow off steam by trying to become king in a fictional world or video game

 

[Micah Sweet]

The Steel test was called for by the GM:
I understand that this sort of round-robinning of GMing may not be familiar to you. But I don't see how it is that hard to follow.

I don't know what you mean by "system-driven", other than that it was in accordance with the rules of the game.

If neither the GM nor the players are directing an action in the game, then that action by default must be system-driven.

 

[zakael19]

I think throwing in wish fulfillment is unhelpful in explaining the immersive play style. There are certainly styles of play where wish fulfillment can play a role, but I find that is a separate thing from say a person simply wanting to have complete control of their characters thoughts and actions. I do think there are very different approaches here. Some people want characters who are effectively extensions of themselves. They might want to be constrained by POV in the setting, and they might want the character to be different from them in certain ways, but I think a lot of people ar looking for the experience of being in the world. But there are also others who want to inhabit a character, and they develop character immersively, rather than through system. And there are people who want characterization through mechanics. There is nothing wrong with any of these approaches. The problem is when we assign value to one over the other, or use language suggest some are more remedial, less sophisticated, childlike or an attempt to fill some lack in life (anyone spending a large amount of time playing games, can be accused of that).

I do think there are games that engage with power fantasy. But I think that can happen in any of the styles we are talking about. And there isn't anything wrong with it. Some folks blow off steam by trying to become king in a fictional world or video game

I threw it in there because @AlViking has used the term to describe at least part of their desires to retain total control over character interior in the last handful of pages, so I added "possibly" to account for people who dont go that far or care about that sort of thing. May I offer you a nutritious nit in these troubling times?

 

[Micah Sweet]

So? That's just a part of the fiction. It doesn't affect the player's control over the shared fiction. Or even over what their PC does.

Now if you are saying that the only bit of the fiction that you as player want to be able to influence is how your PC feels when not enchanted; and if you are saying that you want your influence over that to be total control; then Burning Wheel is not the game for you.

Is this also system driven? Or does "system driven" depend upon whether it's a component of a point-buy PC build, compared to a general rule that is resolved via a dice roll on an attribute?

I've known Burning Wheel is not the game for me for some time now.