D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[zakael19]

I think that saying "when you author the scene and then put the pen down for the player's to pick up, you've written the start of something" is probably valid? If I write down "Will they gain the Spirit of the Gwead's favor?" and said spirit has said "if you want my favor you must seal away the disturbance in my barrow-seal that your kith have undone" and then flesh out the Barrow of King Cothain that's been fractured by looters... there's a story there waiting to be told even if we still have yet to tell it together.

Sure, they can pass by (and answer the question with a "no" or find another way maybe), but if they take that up...

 

[Pedantic]

Right. The illusion of geography is similar to - not necessarily identical to, depending on details of how the illusion is established and maintained - the idea of a "GM-offered menu".

If the GM wants to experience a fiction rather than author a fiction, then the game needs to be set up around a different basis than largely unconstrained GM authorial power.

I see we're jumping right back to extremes. It hardly seems controversial that authors wield more power than GMs. Is not the standard railroading critique "some GMs really should be writing books?"

Perhaps "experience" and "author" are not the options we're picking between here.

 

[zakael19]

If the GM wants to experience a fiction rather than author a fiction, then the game needs to be set up around a different basis than largely unconstrained GM authorial power.

Ohh that's a good framing! Yeah, this. This is why I ask questions of the players and the world and leave where that's going to go open until we need to nail it down; I want all the intervening steps or the tone of the question and the answer of the dice to point what's next.

Like in my example about the spirits above, the players had been thinking about expanding the farming capacity of town for a bit. But when they were first thinking about it, one of the players hadn't swapped playbooks to one that can talk to spirits; we hadn't nailed down just why the massive grasslands doesn't cross over the ancient ruined wall about a mile away from town; and the Judge hadn't fought off an old implacable skeleton chasing tomb robbers (a roll on Travelers table and some framing that spoke to the Judge's situation).

Once all those fictional events happened and then they figured out how to speak to the spirit of the gwead (and indeed we established that the Gwead had a controlling spirit), it made sense for the conditions to include restoring whatever barrow had been looted (prompting me to like, go flesh that out!).

 

[Campbell]

So, for me, I like that when I'm the MC of Apocalypse World that I am not in charge of how things go. I like that I'm more of a facilitator and that I get to frame scenes and find out how things go with the other players. I like that I'm still playing a game with the other players, that I'm not sitting above it. I like that game prompts me and I have to go with its flow. This stuff is fun for me.

D&D is fine as is, most games are fine as is, but there's also room for games like Daggerheart, like Apocalypse World, like Chronicles of Darkness that have different GM roles that are suited to different creative goals and play experiences (including different GM experiences).

I'd ask when people consider if different sorts of GM roles are necessary they think in terms of priorities they do not have, including fostering a sense of ownership. One of the reasons to change this stuff up is to put more responsibility at the other players' feet. Put more on them for how the game goes.

 

[zakael19]

I'd ask when people consider if different sorts of GM roles are necessary they think in terms of priorities they do not have, including fostering a sense of ownership. One of the reasons to change this stuff up is to put more responsibility at the other players' feet. Put more on them for how the game goes.

Im looking forward to running DH for the group I have that's currently playing through the fairly optimistic Forged in teh Dark game we're enjoying. They're big CR / 5e current culture fans, but have also really taken to collaborating on the fiction and setting elements; but also want to hand the power back to me occasionally to be surprised and delighted and have the "dramatic reveal" sort of thing that comes with some constrained knowledge. I think DH is going to be laser focused on what they want based on how it apportions and guides play through its design + principles + agenda.

 

[Lanefan]

If the GM wants to experience a fiction rather than author a fiction, then the game needs to be set up around a different basis than largely unconstrained GM authorial power.

The GM is there, in part, to provide the fiction that the players get to experience through the eyes and actions of their characters; and in part gets to experience that fiction through the eyes and actions of whatever NPCs are in play at the time. Otherwise the GM gets to experience the fiction when designing the setting and its backstory, or when playing in someone else's game.

 

[Bedrockgames]

"When everything is special, nothing is" is a (very true) saying that's been around for ages. All The Incredibles did was make it famous.

Thanks

Check The Incredibles out, though. It's quite good.

I am just not a big pixar or animation guy. My wife has to drag me to watch stuff like this

 

[bloodtide]

The reason for wanting games with rules and principles has nothing to do with anyone being terrible. It's about wanting to play a game.

It makes perfect sense to me. I have said so many times.

Some people want to play just a game. They want to play a game just like all the other games.

Though some of us do not want to play just a game. We want to play something special and unique, something not like anything else.

It is a big difference.

Are the rest of us not playing a game? What you're saying here makes no sense to me.

I would say that yes: the rest of us are quite proudly not playing a game. Embrace it.

Playing a game is what they do. Look back over the couple hundred pages to see what their game is like.

The rest of us are having an amazing experience that goes far beyond 'just playing a game'. It is the thing that has kept many RPGs popular for years.

 

[zakael19]

The GM is there, in part, to provide the fiction that the players get to experience through the eyes and actions of their characters; and in part gets to experience that fiction through the eyes and actions of whatever NPCs are in play at the time. Otherwise the GM gets to experience the fiction when designing the setting and its backstory, or when playing in someone else's game.

I get to experience the story we create in the moment every time I sit down to run any of my games. I quite often truly have no idea what’s going to happen over the next three hours when I open discord and say hi to everybody; or know that they want to pursue a thing or two. Sometimes I’ve prepped a few ideas of stuff I want to highlight or questions I want to ask, once in a while I’ve got a whole adventure site set up to answer a big question (and ask a ton of small ones) like I posted above.

I think that means I’m experiencing the world and the story through all our eyes as we go .

 

[pemerton]

The GM is there, in part, to provide the fiction that the players get to experience through the eyes and actions of their characters; and in part gets to experience that fiction through the eyes and actions of whatever NPCs are in play at the time. Otherwise the GM gets to experience the fiction when designing the setting and its backstory, or when playing in someone else's game.

The second sentence is true if, when the GM is GMing, they use your favoured methods.

But when I GM, generally I get to experience fiction (cf authoring it) because of the rules and principles that are in play.

So simplified, it’s referee-first versus player-first.

On this we agree. I've been making this point for much of this thread, and many predecessor threads also.