D&D 5E READ AND REPLY TO THIS 5E WARLORD THREAD, SOLDIER

Read the options and vote on all that apply to you

  • You can get a better Warlord with a Fighter chassis and an appropriate background and speciality

    Votes: 17 32.7%
  • You can't get the 4e Warlord with Fighter + background + specialty

    Votes: 10 19.2%
  • This bothers my immersion or is not believable

    Votes: 10 19.2%
  • This doesn't bother my immersion

    Votes: 5 9.6%
  • I'm a 4e Warlord player and this is rubbish

    Votes: 2 3.8%
  • I'm a 4e Warlord player and this is decent to good enough

    Votes: 8 15.4%

GX.Sigma

Adventurer
Read the Spring Attack maneuver in the playtest. Its basically providing tactical mobility to an ally via extending the tactical benefits of that maneuver to them.
...
This ability is the classic Warlord "force-multiplier" ability to deliver Striker damage by proxy of an allies offense (and buffing that offense).
Yes, I understand that is mechanically what happens. What does it represent, though? When the player uses that power, what is his character doing?

Basically the classic shield wall, occupying the enemy with your offense and protecting each others' flanks. The ally basically uses your synergized offense/defense/cover to deflect bows. Tactically its extending the Shield Bash feat to him to use to protect himself.
But then, if it's you defending him, shouldn't you use your reaction to do it? The mechanics are saying that your presence allows your ally to defend himself. And that doesn't make much sense to me.

Its "mommy kissing booboos away." Classic Warlord inspiring word healing; HPs as morale. Its the classic trope of the leader walking amongst hist troops after a battle and boosting morale with a word or a grab of the shoulder, or just making his presence felt, while they lick their wounds.
I think there's a better way to represent this. Right now the mechanics are saying "when you use bandages to heal, this ability lets those bandages heal you more"--which doesn't feel like something you can do with a speech. This complaint isn't so much about whether HP can be morale, but the current wording interacts weirdly with the abstraction. I think it would make more sense (especially considering the name) if it's something you do before a battle. Braveheart and such. Maybe if it's more like this:

"You can spend a few minutes to deliver a stirring speech to your allies. Each ally that listens to the speech is immune to fear for 10 minutes. The first time such a creature takes damage during that time, that damage is reduced by 5."

This also makes it useful in mass-combat situations. You could also have this call for a Charisma check (or say that any character can do it with a really good Charisma check, but only the Warlord can do it without having to roll - hmm, that actually sounds a lot like a Rogue skill trick).

Check your latest playtest packet. Sense Motive is in there.
But there are no "[skill] checks" - an effect that grants a bonus to ability checks has to specifically say what situation it applies in. So this effect would have to say "you have advantage on checks you make to discern whether a creature is hostile" or whatever.

Its intentional. Again, a metagame threshold issue for people.
My feedback is that it crosses that threshold.


I never realized before how irreconcilable these perspectives are. I always assumed that everyone thought disassociated mechanics were counter-productive to roleplaying. I wonder what it's going to take to make a game we both like. :\
Level 1: Bardic Tradition
Different bardic colleges teach different styles of barding. Whether taught at a formal college, or simply tutored by an elder, or perhaps even just naturally picking up on what you're good at, you've learned a particular blend of music, magic, and martial prowess. Choose a tradition from the list below:
  • Tradition of Trickery: (this is like the 3.5e illusionist-gnome-bard, with thief skills)
  • Tradition of Lore: (this one focuses on spellcasting)
  • Tradition of War: (this one is our Warlord)
  • Tradition of the Wanderer: (this one gets a bit from each camp)

Booyah.
This doesn't really solve the warlord problem, but I love these ideas for bardic traditions. Add a druidic version and I'm sold.
 
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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Manbearcat said:
@Kamikaze Midget I'm not going to speak for Warlord players (I only DM games) but I know the class quite well and that is an extremely solid rendering by way of the maneuver/martial damage dice system. Obviously numbers need tweaked and so forth but I would say that you've captured the thematic spirit and tactical depth (with consideration for the limits of the 5e core engine's tactical depth relative to 4e) of the class extremely well there.

Again, given that your render is fully martial and fraught with metagame implications, I wonder what the reaction by the metagame averse would be to it. I'd be interested in hearing the commentary.

That makes me pretty happy. :) A lot of my "warlords don't need to be a unique class!" posts I think rely on the assumption that stuff like this is possible, that you can get at what is interesting about a warlord without an independent mechanic for it. It's sometimes tough to see that without an example, and I think this thread is great for giving those examples. :)

I'm curious about the level of metagame you see in it. I was making a pretty conscious effort to tie the mechanics to things that the player could actually imagine themselves doing (shouting warnings, offering encouragement, distracting enemies, even threatening them with retribution!), so I'm interested in where that fell down in your view.

GX.Sigma said:
This doesn't really solve the warlord problem, but I love these ideas for bardic traditions. Add a druidic version and I'm sold.

Aw, man, that should've been a no-brainer for me, even had the 1e PHB open to the bard while I was writing that post!

I'm curious about the ways it doesn't "solve the warlord problem" for you. What's the big issue there, in your mind?
 

DonAdam

Explorer
That is a sweet Bard design Kamikaze.

An important option that the warlord introduces is a non-magical, non-sneaky canny character. I'm using "canny" as a catch-all for Int, Wis, and Cha. As such I'd be equally happy with a very flexible fighter class, non-magical bard options, or a distinct class. It's not a matter of principle but of execution.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Now we need KM and Manbearcat to Voltron these classes together and make something even better. I will also go out on a limb and say as someone who has played a Warlord, I find the War Tradition Bard an acceptable alternative. Especially if spellcasting is tied to Tradition and not the base Bard chassis.
 

GX.Sigma

Adventurer
I'm curious about the ways it doesn't "solve the warlord problem" for you. What's the big issue there, in your mind?
It doesn't solve my issue with the Warlord, because it uses disassociated and metagame mechanics. It doesn't fix the issue of the people who argue that the warlord shouldn't be a fighter build, because what you've done here is created a Fighter build that is a warlord.
 

Nemesis Destiny

Adventurer
It's a decent start; but clearly it's only a start. Like the Rogue in the December, 2012 play-test packet, the Warlord should have a variety of different builds supported. (Bravura/Insightful/Inspiring/Resourceful/Skirmishing/Tactical would be another good start.)

So: I don't think it's rubbish; instead, I think it's a good start. Also, I don't think it breaks my immersion, because only a final product could do that.

This is about how I'd feel about this if it were in an upcoming packet.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
It doesn't solve my issue with the Warlord, because it uses disassociated and metagame mechanics. It doesn't fix the issue of the people who argue that the warlord shouldn't be a fighter build, because what you've done here is created a Fighter build that is a warlord.

So I'd like to understand what specific elements of my proposal seem dissociated and metagame to you (since I rather deliberately tied the effects to specific actions that occur in the game world - ie, shouting warnings, threatening retribution, etc.).

You might want to read the post again -- I specifically avoided making it a fighter build, for some pretty specific reasons, and a few Warlord fans have already said it hits quite close by their sweet spot. Since I'm sort of on the other side (as a guy who doesn't like dissociation and metagame much), and it hits my sweet spot, too, I'm interested in how your view differs from my own.
 
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Chris_Nightwing

First Post
I object to, shall we say, the Captain's Lock in the thread title.

There are definitely some powers that dissociate too far for me. They way you describe Phalanx Formation implies that it should require a shield. The ability to give an ally a free attack and they get advantage on it is too much. Granting DR effects is a great way to get across the healing aspect of the 4E Warlord though and I would focus on using that for all such effects. I might critique in more detail if I have time later..
 

Whatever you have created up above is not a healer. It looks mostly like a fighter with some wildly underpowered abilities.

That looks like a vote for rubbish!

Yes, I understand that is mechanically what happens. What does it represent, though? When the player uses that power, what is his character doing?

But then, if it's you defending him, shouldn't you use your reaction to do it? The mechanics are saying that your presence allows your ally to defend himself. And that doesn't make much sense to me.

Its taking advantage of the Warlord's aggressive weapon and shield work, coupled with his own (hence phalanx), to provide cover or create difficulty for the opponent to strike true; like Spartan Hoplites in skirmishes. You wouldn't be able to impose disadvantage if your brother wasn't next to you or engaging the same target in melee. Its coordinated fighting.

My feedback is that it crosses that threshold.

I never realized before how irreconcilable these perspectives are. I always assumed that everyone thought disassociated mechanics were counter-productive to roleplaying. I wonder what it's going to take to make a game we both like. :\

Yup. That is the feedback I was looking for. I was sure it would cross the threshold for some (many?) folks.

The perspectives are quite irreconcilable. There is an entire creative agenda that is pretty close to diametric opposition to what you describe. Having air-tight coupling of in-world causal logic and mechanics (ardent process simulation) is a barrier to that creative agenda. It constrains narrative interpretation and renderings when they want those renderings loosened.

For instance:

A guy wants to play a character like MacGyver or Batman in a fantasy setting. A system gives that guy an ability called "A tool for everything" and the game assumes that he either has every tool or can find a way to use anything as a tool, and the mechanics promote him entering director stance and "conjuring" tools to interact with the world or "conjuring" something that lets him use his cool "A tool for everything" ability. The guy rolls his dice pool and resolves the conflict and he or the GM narrates what the results means. That system, the GM/player interaction and the style of game created is very much different than a granular system that makes him put points in "open locks", "disable device", "search", "science-engineering", etc and assume that he is an actor stance (1st person limited perspective) all the time and always reacting to what the GM puts before him, serially exploring the world, and accounting for every lockpick and crobar used up.

And then there are games in between. The two creative agendas are very different from one another as is the threshold for metagame mechanics (one loves them and they're necessary to produce the style of play while the other abhors them).

That makes me pretty happy. :) A lot of my "warlords don't need to be a unique class!" posts I think rely on the assumption that stuff like this is possible, that you can get at what is interesting about a warlord without an independent mechanic for it. It's sometimes tough to see that without an example, and I think this thread is great for giving those examples. :)

You did a great job. Its not on a Fighter chassis, it hits all the right notes, it has Daily resources to "amp up the awesome", and the maneuver/MDD framework that you composed is pretty elegant and functional. High marks.

I'm curious about the level of metagame you see in it. I was making a pretty conscious effort to tie the mechanics to things that the player could actually imagine themselves doing (shouting warnings, offering encouragement, distracting enemies, even threatening them with retribution!), so I'm interested in where that fell down in your view.

1) Any daily resources for martial classes is a metagame resource. It assumes stance fluctuation (to author) by allowing a PC to impose their narrative will on a situation as it decouples hard causal logic/process-sim and uses metagame interests as its reasoning for existence (to "amp up the awesome" and bring more tactical girth to the party); which is awesome. But again, it freaks people out who don't like such things.

2) Warlord healing (or even temporary HPs...which absorb damage as basically a "morale HP buffer" so are basically healing by proxy) makes folks get "up close and personal" with the more metagamey aspect of hit points. As much as anything, this freaks people out who want to consider HPs as primarily meat because the idea of warlords "shouting wounds closed" or, in this case, "shouting wounds closed before they happen" does not meet their causal logic expectations. I love it, however as its genre-enabling and I have no such illusions about HPs.

3) The X-Men, comic book-ey idea of characters shouting commands to each other and reacting in real time (be it a free attack or immediate action or free, tactical movement) sends some folks out of process-simulation expectations of what "should" be possible and into metagame examination mode; eg, this is "gamist nonsense for the sake of tactical depth" or "this is way too much gonzo, high fantasy, action-movie physics narrative nonsense"..."this makes no sense for my grim, real-world physics expectations."

I do note that you worked hard to make sure that "PC agency" was a sovereign thing; eg, a player can move 5 feet.
Again, I love metagame mechanics. All 3 of those things enable the kind of genre conceits, tactical interplay and narrative space that I'm looking for. But some clearly can't stand those things. This is why the Warlord, in specific, is such a metagame powderkeg and drew so much rancor from metagame averse folks.
 

Now we need KM and Manbearcat to Voltron these classes together and make something even better. I will also go out on a limb and say as someone who has played a Warlord, I find the War Tradition Bard an acceptable alternative. Especially if spellcasting is tied to Tradition and not the base Bard chassis.

I like KM's better than my own. To be honest, I just threw it together quickly as a test. I wasn't so much trying to nail down balance or anything...just wanted to try to hit all the Warlord notes and see what people thought about the ability to create the Warlord on various chassis and the embedded metagame stuff.

Take most of KM's version and throw a few of the non-combat-specific, thematic things I have up there and I think you'd have a pretty fancy-pants class.
 

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