reading attack vs invisible caster

[melkoriii]

I go with #1.

When you start to cast an attack spell the Invisibility drops. The spell does not have to be completed or do damage. It only needs an attack roll or a target for the invisibility to drop.

If the Invisible caster had made a melee attack and missed would he become visible?

Yes.

And as hong said “A readied action always goes before the triggering event” You don’t rationalize it, its game mechanics

 

[The Souljourner]

No way it's #1... otherwise you'd NEVER get an attack with the benefit of being invisible. Think about it, rogue is invisible, goes to attack someone, turns visible just before, then doesn't get his sneak attack because now he's visible. Nope. Has to be #5... though as someone else said, the listen check isn't actually all that bad.

So... the guy's invisible until after his action completes, which means you never actually see the action, so you don't get to use your readied action. You could ready an action to fire an arrow at the sound of someone casting a spell... but yeah... it's not perfect and not easy.

However, invisibility only gives you one free spell. If one single spell makes that much of a difference, you're probably in trouble anyway.

-The Souljourner

 

[jontherev]

According to the FAQ, an invisible (not improved) rogue can make a full attack action and gain the full benefits of the spell (all may qualify as sneak attacks). Therefore, I would assume that the spell lasts through the entire action. No way it's #1. Dude tries to locate (via listen) the invisible, flying wizard, and if successful, gets to attack the STILL INVISIBLE wizard. IF he hits (bypassing the concealment), the wizard MAY lose his spell. Whatever happens, the wizard turns visible only after his action is completed (whether or not the spell fizzles). You may not like it, but that seems to be the official ruling for how invisibility works.

 

[Isollae]

If he becomes visible AFTER the spell compleats, you still allow invisibilty to trump READY ATION. You see the Ogre Mage was a known entity (thats why he was ready) But because he was invisible would NOT be susceptible to Counter-spell as there are no 'keys' to make a spellcraft check on.

this would suggest that invisibility goes 'away' at the begining of the spell thus allowing counterspell...this is weak but i got more.

in the spell description for invisibility (players pg 218) it states that you be come visibile imeadiatly when you attack (make an attack action) the key word here being IMEADIATLY.

Invisibility is a second level spell. Alowing a second level spell to alter basic game mechanics is asking for trouble. You don't get to do that till you get 4th level stuff like Confusion, Improved Invisibility(snicker), and Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer.

and even those are lighter then this stuff.

and then theres the one DM's reallly hate. on page 158 of the Players Hand book (lower left corner) it discusses Saving against illusions. Since saving throws are NOT actions of ANY type you can always make the save and then proccede to render the Oger Mage unconcious. course then you have to decide which throw to use. Ref, Will, or Fort?

The argument about the Summon Creature doesn't hold water as that is identical as to opening a cage filled with hostiles which is clearly defined in Invisibility itself. The key THERE is WHAT SPECIFICALLY is the action against...the action is to summon a Dude. the action is to open a cage. the action is to play the harp.

If the dude is a deamon your still invisible
If the cage opens down and weighs 1000000 pounds and will land on a bad guy you become visible
and if the the harp rains fire and brimstone upon the world you still become visible even tho there's no one there to see you.

Iso
"...Well then, in the interests of Intersteller comunnications i'd just like to say....COWABUNGA!"

 

[hong]

Think about it,

Why do people only say to "think about it" when it's a bad idea?

rogue is invisible, goes to attack someone, turns visible just before, then doesn't get his sneak attack because now he's visible.

He was invisible long enough to get into position, even if the actual strike takes place when he's visible. Is that so hard to imagine?

 

[hong]

According to the FAQ, an invisible (not improved) rogue can make a full attack action and gain the full benefits of the spell (all may qualify as sneak attacks).

Where?

 

[jontherev]

Didn't see it upon looking. I might be thinking of a recent Sage Advice, but I know this has been ruled official somehow. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[IceBear]

and then theres the one DM's reallly hate. on page 158 of the Players Hand book (lower left corner) it discusses Saving against illusions. Since saving throws are NOT actions of ANY type you can always make the save and then proccede to render the Oger Mage unconcious. course then you have to decide which throw to use. Ref, Will, or Fort?

I don't understand what you're saying here

The argument about the Summon Creature doesn't hold water as that is identical as to opening a cage filled with hostiles which is clearly defined in Invisibility itself. The key THERE is WHAT SPECIFICALLY is the action against...the action is to summon a Dude. the action is to open a cage. the action is to play the harp.

If the dude is a deamon your still invisible
If the cage opens down and weighs 1000000 pounds and will land on a bad guy you become visible
and if the the harp rains fire and brimstone upon the world you still become visible even tho there's no one there to see you.

This is directly against the spell description, BTW.

From the SRD:

Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear.

This implies that cutting the rope on a cage that falls on the PCs does not cause you to become visible, just like cutting the rope on a rope bridege wouldn't.

Anyway, clearly, it's not the intent of attacking that's sufficient, it's the act itself (BTW - was this even an attack spell that he was casting?). Hong has a good point though with readied actions coming before the action that triggered it. However, you still are getting your readied action - you just have to make the Listen checks first, and maybe an area of effect spell would have been a better choice.

IceBear

 

[The Souljourner]

quote: Originally posted by The Souljourner
rogue is invisible, goes to attack someone, turns visible just before, then doesn't get his sneak attack because now he's visible.

He was invisible long enough to get into position, even if the actual strike takes place when he's visible. Is that so hard to imagine?

It's not hard to imagine, but it's also not the way it works. When the rogue's weapon is piercing your kidney, he's still invisible. If he were visible when his attack went through, he wouldn't get the benefit.

-The Souljourner

 

[hong]

It's not hard to imagine, but it's also not the way it works.

Why?

When the rogue's weapon is piercing your kidney, he's still invisible.

Why?

If he were visible when his attack went through, he wouldn't get the benefit.

Why?