D&D 5E Reducing Power Gaming

Maybe. In particular in the D&D sphere, a lot of people come in with a set of expectations and even if you tell them its homebrewed, you may well need to work to get them to not expect those sort of things. Years ago I had someone who came from OD&D play RQ for the first time, and he just couldn't shed his expectations, to his regret (and to some degree, mine).
I feel this. Started using proficiency dice and players just straight up forgot to use them. It got to the point where I just stopped reminding them because it happened so much. A lot of failed rolls could have been successful.
 

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I have also found simply slowing down levelling has helped a lot. Been playing for a year (once a month mind you), and the characters are only level 4. I find the players really lean into the handful of powers/spells they have and use them in creative ways.
I agree slower advancement (particularly levels 1-4 or 5) is a good idea. It seems like they are advancing at about half-speed from your description.

Our current homebrew project slows down advancement at lower levels severely:

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However, we then ramp things up a bit in tier 2 and 3 due to the slog that the RAW experience progression creates and how many groups break apart before advancing beyond 10th level. We're hoping that the faster progression for levels 7-15 will help avoid that a bit. We are also stopping advancement at level 15, but there are other things going on which really isn't the point of this thread, so I'll be posting about it when we have the first draft of the complete document ready.
 

Battlemaster was never touted as underpowered or boring to play before Tasha's and power creep reared its ugly head.
Battlemaster did a few extra dice of damage per short rest.
The way to make it not suck was to turn those extra dice of damage into extra hits and extra chances to hit.

Precision, Riposte, Brace.

Now your dice stretch out over a few more rounds, and each use is about twice as strong.

Then, have 1 additional use of dice that you pull out when you crit. The rider doesn't matter, so make it trip or disarm (both of which are situationally useful).

The traditional BM, who uses their abilities to do damage and do tricks? It is pretty lackluster in my experience; you barely notice the effects of the subclass abilities.

Champion is not boring, it is simple. There's a difference.
No, Champion is boring. You can make a non-boring champion that remains simple.


These are the baseline, certainly, but that doesn't mean everything that follows has to be "moar power", in fact, I would argue it is determental to the game when it is. Things need to be new, but balance with what IS already in the game.
So the Champion's level 3 feature is poor design. It gets more powerful at higher levels, and in fact is most powerful when used as a 3 level dip by a level 17 character who has another source of advantage.

On a level 3 fighter, having a 19-20 crit range causes barely noticeable change in play.

A level 3 subclass feature should have maximum impact on a level 3 character of that class, not minimal.

And deciding not to take a subclass shouldn't feel exactly the same as taking a subclass. That is what the champion feels like; you didn't take a subclass.

The 2024 one is slightly better; remarkable athlete moves down to level 3, and feels like it does something.

But I still think it needs something, like "when you take a second wind, you can make a melee weapon attack".

I find this statement laughable, but hey think what you want.


Oh, sure, and over powered to a crazy degree when actually played.
I'm playing a Rune Knight (Barbarian 8/RK 4) right now.

I'm not using the Stone rune (I'm using the Cloud rune). Btw, the Stone rune effect is a joke in that it makes the creature Stoned.

Creatures worth using a 1/SR ability on tend to have legendary resists. Anything else, the best condition is dead. The fire shackles have a decent chance to do nothing on a front-line opponent. If they do do something and it isn't a legendary foe, well, if there is focus fire the creature you hit is dead within the round anyhow?

It does let you hit a creature then decide to leave them alone and go after someone else.

The stoned rune produces a weaker effect than Hold Person, a 2nd level spell, most of the time. It does, however, not eat an action or concentration. Hold Person causes auto-crits and scales, with higher level spells targetting more creatures.

Compare a level 5 Rune Knight to a level 5 Warlock.

L5 RK: Two attacks, ~12 damage each, melee. 16 AC (no-stealth penalty heavy armor, not super-expensive)

2 single-target disables that don't require actions. (cloud and fire rune)
Action surge, second wind.

L5 Warlock: Two attacks, 9.5 damage each (13 if you use Hex), ranged. 14 AC (studded) Two casts of hold person (2 targets each) or similar spells.
Pact boon, subclass, 1 free invocation (the other was agonizing blast)
Suppose Hexblade. Then damage (with hex) hits 16 per tap (x2), get 19-20 crit range, and a 9 point heal when they are defeated. Plus medium armor.

Like, I'm not seeing the huge gap.

The Hill option? That is just a 1/SR rage. And it uses the same bonus action as getting big the RK wants to use. In a 3 round fight, it sucks to take 2 rounds to "scale up".

If you consider this "average", your style seems OP to me and way above what I like to play (which is fine for you, of course!). Do you even use anything prior to Tasha's still or did you just jump on board the 2024 boat as soon as you could? I would think it has the power you probably prefer? I know I will never play 2024 material, for example, so that should give you a good concept of what I consider overkill to enjoying the game.

But yeah, I challenge you to show how any of the subclasses in 2014 from PHB or Xanathar's offers as much candy as the Rune Knight does. :)
I mean, Diviner? The Totem Barbarian (resist all but psychic)?

A subclass should actually do something. Two characters, both the same class and a different subclass, should feel different to play with.

2014 Champion really feels like "you forgot to write in your subclass" in actual play.

By level 20, the funny thing is that the Champions features start kicking in. The extra crit range matters more with higher end weapons and more attacks, for example. If you graph a naive "I hit more often to do more damage" BM against a Champion, the BM damage is way higher ... until late T3, when the Champion catches up.

At low levels, the difference between the Champion and the subclass-less fighter is smaller than the difference between the Champion and the BM, and the only class feature the Champion gets is damage.

So, if you think the Champion is a well designed subclass, I'm not sure a subclass that does anything at all at the table will pass your standards of "not OP".

Note that the 2014 BM outdamages the RK still - the RK has lots more utility than it has raw damage output.
 


Btw, the Stone rune effect is a joke in that it makes the creature Stoned.
Frankly, that is an awful "joke" and pretty lame IMO.

Creatures worth using a 1/SR ability on tend to have legendary resists. Anything else, the best condition is dead. The fire shackles have a decent chance to do nothing on a front-line opponent. If they do do something and it isn't a legendary foe, well, if there is focus fire the creature you hit is dead within the round anyhow?

It does let you hit a creature then decide to leave them alone and go after someone else.

The stoned rune produces a weaker effect than Hold Person, a 2nd level spell, most of the time. It does, however, not eat an action or concentration. Hold Person causes auto-crits and scales, with higher level spells targetting more creatures.
I disagree. Many creatures are worth using these abilities on without legendary resistances. So far, I have only had one foe (an adult black dragon) out of the 100+ foes with legendary resistance in these 1st to 7th levels. The second is coming up soon, however.

A failed save means, for at least one round, the foe does nothing practically, leaving the party free to inflict whatever havoc they wish. And sometimes it was focused fire which lead to the target's defeat without hardly a fight. People complain about high level magic (or even lower levels sometimes) completely dominating an encounter, and these runes have done the same. But they aren't being cast as spells, have no concentration, etc. as you note.

I'll add that the fire rune requires no additional action and stone is a reaction, so easy enough although it will compete possibly with runic shield at 7th and after.

Comparing them to spells is apples to oranges to me. I am comparing them to subclass features of other FIGHTERS. Now, an Eldritch Knight could have hold person at 8th level, but then as you say, no action to cast nor concentration.

Compare a level 5 Rune Knight to a level 5 Warlock.
A useless comparison IMO since Warlocks aren't Fighters nor fighter subclasses.

I mean, Diviner? The Totem Barbarian (resist all but psychic)?
You're confusing relative power versus "all the candy" of the Rune Knight.

Diviner 7th: (3 things, and 5 by the end)
  1. Divination Savant (fairly useless in most games and often forgotten)
  2. Portent (the "cool" but very limited--just two dice-feature)
  3. Expert Divination (niche and semi-useful at best IME)

Totem Barbarian 7th: (just 3 things, only 5 by the end also)
  1. Spirit Seeker (meh but useful on occasion)
  2. Totem Spirit (who doesn't take Bear... very powerful, certainly!)
  3. Aspect of the Beast (slightly better than meh, can be useful)

VS.

Rune Knight 7th: (twice as many as either of those you cite with 6 things, and 11 by the end!!!)
  1. Two proficiencies (meh and niche, but can be useful)
  2. First rune (all powerful and useful)
  3. Second rune
  4. Giant's Might (very strong)
  5. Runic Shield (also very strong... oh, that was a natural 20? roll it again please...)
  6. Third rune
This is what I mean. "More candy" and better tasting over all. Sure, Portent and Bear Totem are stellar, no doubt, but Rune Knight has several great, multifacet features in the same span.

It is OP for me so banned (as is anyway) in future games.

A subclass should actually do something. Two characters, both the same class and a different subclass, should feel different to play with.
Sure, and as I said upthread I have no issue with the concept of Rune Knight... just the design of it.

Anyway, this is derailing the thread enough so I'm bowing out of this part of the topic.
 

Battlemaster was never touted as underpowered or boring to play before Tasha's and power creep reared its ugly head.
power creep or hot fix to underpowered classes.
Gloomstalker, mercy and hexblade inclueded, because in 2014 rogue, ranger, monk and fighter are mechanically bad classes.

Champion is not boring, it is simple. There's a difference.

These are the baseline, certainly, but that doesn't mean everything that follows has to be "moar power", in fact, I would argue it is determental to the game when it is. Things need to be new, but balance with what IS already in the game.
champions choice in battle is roll d20 or not roll d20. that is it. as only feature is improved crit on attack d20.
I find this statement laughable, but hey think what you want.


Oh, sure, and over powered to a crazy degree when actually played.
there is overpowered and "perception" of overpowered.

If you consider this "average", your style seems OP to me and way above what I like to play (which is fine for you, of course!). Do you even use anything prior to Tasha's still or did you just jump on board the 2024 boat as soon as you could? I would think it has the power you probably prefer? I know I will never play 2024 material, for example, so that should give you a good concept of what I consider overkill to enjoying the game.
Tasha's was a breath of fresh air for "naughty word" classes in 2014. and it was a lot of those to fix.
little overboard with Twilight cleric as cleric did not need a hotfix, but rogue, fighter, ranger and monk needed it badly.

and as whole rewrite of classes was a no go for Tasha's, new and improved subclasses was the only choice.
and in most cases it was a good choice.
 


I agree slower advancement (particularly levels 1-4 or 5) is a good idea. It seems like they are advancing at about half-speed from your description.

Our current homebrew project slows down advancement at lower levels severely:

View attachment 389372

However, we then ramp things up a bit in tier 2 and 3 due to the slog that the RAW experience progression creates and how many groups break apart before advancing beyond 10th level. We're hoping that the faster progression for levels 7-15 will help avoid that a bit. We are also stopping advancement at level 15, but there are other things going on which really isn't the point of this thread, so I'll be posting about it when we have the first draft of the complete document ready.
this is completely irrelevant,
you can advance every session or every 10th session.
that relies on your group when you decide that current level is getting boring.

CR levels with you, so when you are more powerful, so are monsters in the battle. Or your DM is doing a poor job.

personally every 2 or 3 sessions are good for level up. that is 4 or 6 battles for a level.


but that is my preference. opinions may vary.
 

As the last several post are for fighter,

EK is OK, RK is ok,

just merge champion and BM into single sub class and that could make it not boring as hell.
 


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