D&D 3E/3.5 Refocus disappeared in 3.5?

[Infiniti2000]

If the newcomers are unaware of the encounter, they roll initiative normally, and are flat-footed until their turn in the initiative order arises. In this case, it's necessary to either a/ know what everyone else's initiative scores are, or b/ house rule how unaware newcomers enter combat.

Ah ha! I knew I remembered it correctly. See, KD, that's what I was talking about.

The DM always knows when another monster is nearby, so he rolls its initiative normally.

No, the monster's initiative is not rolled until he's aware of combat. If that's 5 rounds into the combat, then you won't have a record of the initiative counts and won't be able to sort the new monster (or character) into the initiative order.

I don't see how the "first half" of Delay makes the slightest difference to anything. There's no benefit to declaring a specific initiative roll to act on; you get precisely the same benefit by specifying the creature you want to go after (or before).

It only makes a difference for new creature entering the combat. I agree you don't need initiative counts unless such a thing happens. But, as Hyp has shown, a new entrant rolls initiative and if you want to make sure you always go before new entrants you could just choose initiative count 500. Thus, the rogue will always surprise new combatants who might have been unaware of the combat.

Is this a very unusual case? Yes, so maybe we should stop spending so much energy on it.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Although unaware newcomers could show up, how often do newcomers show up who are not aware of an encounter (assuming the encounter is a battle and the players are in initiative)?

It might not be common, but it's not unusual. Consider the PC's assaulting the main gate of some evil temple. 2 rounds into the combat, the guards ring a bell and alert more guards in some potentially distant part of the temple. Do the newly alerted guards go on the initiative of the bell (or whoever rung it) or do they roll initiative?

They roll initiative, but now you have no initiative counts.

For that matter, the aware newcomer rule is pretty silly as well. Newcomers should show up when they show up, not stacked up in a row "at the beginning of a round".

That's something we agree upon.

 

[KarinsDad]

It might not be common, but it's not unusual. Consider the PC's assaulting the main gate of some evil temple. 2 rounds into the combat, the guards ring a bell and alert more guards in some potentially distant part of the temple. Do the newly alerted guards go on the initiative of the bell (or whoever rung it) or do they roll initiative?

They roll initiative, but now you have no initiative counts.

They also are supposed to show up flatfooted if they are "unaware".

However, in your example here, I would make them "aware" once they hear the bell. Hence, all of them go at the beginning of the next round. I suspect that totally unaware newcomers are a lot more uncommon than you imply here.

 

[IanB]

The only situation I can think of where you might have unaware combatants, other than the aforementioned 'wizard teleports home' scenario, is in a moving battle where you move into an area where there are potential combatants who weren't aware of the fight. This does happen from time to time IMC. I tend to deal with it by rolling initiative for the new people and putting their cards in in the right place. As I write the initial initiative result for characters on the index cards each combat, it is typically not difficult to figure out where in the order they should go.

I do have to replace index cards eventually as they get filled up with initiative notations, but that is not a terribly onerous disadvantage.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I do have to replace index cards eventually as they get filled up with initiative notations, but that is not a terribly onerous disadvantage.

Would it work to put a strip of tape on each card, and write the numbers in erasable marker?

-Hyp.

 

[IanB]

That would work, sure, since I always have wet erase markers around anyway for drawing on the Chessex mat. Given that at any given time there are maybe at most 9 or 10 index cards in use, and the fact that index cards come in packs of like 500, I'm not sure it would make a big difference. I've still not used up my first packful of them in the 2 years since I started doing it this way.

 

[Infiniti2000]

IanB, that's pretty much what I do, except that I write the init numbers on stat cards, all prerolled and presorted before the session. (I presort as much as possible, though obviously sometimes an encounter will just pop up where I didn't expect one and so forth.)

However, in your example here, I would make them "aware" once they hear the bell. Hence, all of them go at the beginning of the next round. I suspect that totally unaware newcomers are a lot more uncommon than you imply here.

Well, that's what you would do. I wouldn't. By that logic, though, you could never have an unaware newcomer (side trivia: anyone else think Alien Nation?) because at some point they will be aware. At the point the bell tolls the newcomers are unaware and roll initiative for the next round. It's an identical situation as if they just got teleported into the combat or the combat spilled over into their area.

 

[irdeggman]

unaware newcomer (side trivia: anyone else think Alien Nation?) because at some point they will be aware. At the point the bell tolls the newcomers are unaware and roll initiative for the next round. It's an identical situation as if they just got teleported into the combat or the combat spilled over into their area.

Loved that show (TV series that is, better than the movie in most ways, IMO).

Did you notice that the actor playing the bigot human cop ended up playing the bigot Vulcan in Enterprise?

 

[irdeggman]

A much more common occurence of new combatants being unaware occurs when the combat is moving. That is when one party attempts to get away and the other oersues them.

Either through city streets, in the wild (more difficult to make them "unaware") or even in a dungeon via opening doors and such.

 

[KarinsDad]

The entire concept of "aware versus unaware" is very strange and not well defined in the DMG.

For example, say you have room A and room B connected by a closed door.

The PCs are fighting in room A. The Orcs in room B hear this and prepare for battle.

During the fight, one of the PCs opens the door, sees an Orc, and throws a dagger.

There are two possibilities here:

1) The Orcs are aware. In this case, they could have been considered in combat for several rounds now, readied missile weapons, and could pelt the PC who opened the door. This seems reasonable (at least to me).

2) The Orcs are unaware. In this case, there are several problems.

a) Since they are unaware, the PC who opened the door not only gets to attack first, but if he has a higher initiative then what they rolled, he got a full round of action on round x and another full round action on round x+1. This is more actions than you even get while suprised which is at most a standard action followed by a full round of action.

Note: this assumes you hold off on their initiatives to solve problem c below.

b) If the PCs had not been in combat, and this PC just opened the door normally, he may or may not have been able to act in a surprise round. Hence, he can do more actions in the "in combat case" than in the "not in combat case".

c) The Orcs who roll a lousy initiative get to go before the Orcs who rolled a good initiative.

Say PC went on 15. Orc 1 rolls a 18, Orc 2 rolls a 12. Orc 2 gets to go 12, Orc 1 doesn't get to go until 18 of the next round since the PC did not go at "start of round".


Plus, there are other issues. Say you have a group of guards coming towards the battle because the alarm went off. If you consider them unaware, then they are flatfooted until their first action occurs. So, when they arrive, do they arrive on their first action? If so, there is no need (in this case) for the flatfooted rule. If not, then they waltz into the room and are immediately flatfooted.

So, if the battle breaks into a new location, having the newcomers there flatfooted is reasonable. If the newcomers come to the battle, having them being flatfooted is not reasonable.