D&D 5E Regarding DMG, Starter Set and Essentials kit: Are they good for the starting DMs?

[FrogReaver]

Wait, bards can read?

If you are asking that question they have you right where they want you.

 

[Imaro]

I think that explaining design decisions is useful to all levels of experience of DMs.

I think without the context of having ever experienced or ran a game they serve little to no purpose.

That's honestly something I'd like to see more of. It's kind of a request for "show, don't tell". I think the DMG tells a lot more than it shows.

It's not something I would advocate for products specifically aimed at brand new players or GM's but more experienced ones or in the core rules that would be used throughout the lifetime of a game... sure.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The issue, from my point of view, is that (B) is so implausible it's hard to take it seriously. Is there any other field of instruction in which examples aren't useful? There are certainly many other RPGs where examples are useful. Why would D&D be so atypical?

Good question: why would it be? Has any DMG had enough examples to suit you (other than 4e, which I assume is a yes for you)? If not, why do you think D&D hasn't gone to this supposed "industry standard" after nearly 50 years?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Given its prominence and centrality, wouldn't it be better to accept that that is a purpose it is going to be used for and thus write it accordingly, rather than doggedly insisting that it wasn't meant for that despite the name?

Who uses the DMG as a teaching tool? Seriously, who are these people? Its a $50 book (for now), that you still need other books to play the game with.

 

[FrogReaver]

It's not something I would advocate for products specifically aimed at brand new players or GM's but more experienced ones or in the core rules that would be used throughout the lifetime of a game... sure.

my initial takeaway was that reading alternate takes from 2 designers was very interesting.

If that technique could be useful to the DMG and add value I’d be all aboard. Im not sure it would add that much value though. 5e was primarily a synthesis of user surveys. Designing that way means they are a bit more limited on the whys.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Okay so...

Why not make a "Content Creator's Handbook," as a separate thing for DMs looking to expand their horizons...

And then instead of publishing this "CCH" as one of the three core books, publish it a month or two after the core books, which can include a Player's Handbook (which contains all the rules and guidance needed on the purely player-facing side to prepare for playing the game), a Monster Manual (which contains all the rules and guidance needed to make use of creatures in the game), and a Dungeon Master's Guide (which would contain all the rules and guidance needed to act as a Dungeon Master)...?

Your argument seems to be strengthened by abandoning the "that's not what the DMG is for" stance, and instead switching to "okay, that can be what the DMG is for, and it gets followed up by a Content Creator's Handbook later on for folks that want to tinker."

There is no chance they're going to rename the DMG, and vanishingly little that they're going to repurpose it. Some reorganization is really all you can realistically hope for.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No. You do not need to create content to be the DM. There is plenty of content available. DMing is about running the game. That's quite enough for new players to take in.

Once they are no longer newbies they can, if they like, start to learn how to create content, but it is not an essential skill for a DM.

Not being necessary isn't the same thing as not being a DMing topic.

 

[Imaro]

my initial takeaway was that reading alternate takes from 2 designers was very interesting.

If that technique could be useful to the DMG and add value I’d be all aboard. Im not sure it would add that much value though. 5e was primarily a synthesis of user surveys. Designing that way means they are a bit more limited on the whys.

Oh I agree they were interesting but again because I had the knowledge and context to relate and understand them. Do you think they would hold much value for someone who had never played or seen a ttrpg played? That's the use case we are discussing.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well it would help if that wasn't literally what was being said.

We are straight-up being told "that's not what the book is for." As in, it would not be useful to add it to this book, because however useful examples might be, they don't belong in the book that claims to guide dungeon masters.

So yes. I completely believe that we are being told that examples are not useful. And while I don't think absolutely everything ever needs an example, I certainly think new DMs need such things, and that the book purporting to be the guide for dungeon masters should have lots and lots of them.

I think the DMG should actually live up to its name. Because that's kind of really REALLY important for getting more DMs, which are absolutely essential for growth in the hobby!

I don't see how the starter sets don't accomplish this goal, heavily supplemented by third party material on line and in print. Doing more would for WotC be a waste of effort and money.

 

[Micah Sweet]

.....

No, they don't.

They publish the DMG. Which doesn't actually guide DMs.

And then they charge you $20 to actually get instructions. In something that doesn't actually bill itself as being an instruction manual, but rather as a totally optional side content thing.

That is my problem, right there. Everyone knows you're supposed to get all three core books. That's why they sell them in boxed sets and such. The core books are SUPPOSED to be where you start. The DMG fails to live up to that design, that title, that role. I consider this an extremely foolish choice--essentially shooting yourself in the foot, as far as actually getting people into the hobby.

You keep saying we should ignore the title. Why? Why shouldn't we actually expect to get what's being sold to us?

For something who puts a lot of emphasis on titles, you don't think a product called "Starter Set" is meant to be where one starts?