D&D 5E Regarding DMG, Starter Set and Essentials kit: Are they good for the starting DMs?

[hawkeyefan]

Quick try and do damage control by misrepresenting (since I haven't stated it yet) and discrediting an opinion you made up on my behalf about something before I give it...

I'm not misrepresenting your opinion at all... as you say, you haven't shared it yet.

I'm just pointing out the absurdity of thumbing through a book and then using that to comment in a thread where you've said that books aren't sufficient to learn a game.

Doesn't it seem paradoxical?

Bring up games others aren't likely to own.

It's a great book! It won 7 Ennies! It's a popular game. It's just not D&D.

Demand they can't have an accurate opinion about the game unless they buy the game.

I'm not demanding anything. I said it offers separate advice for different levels of GM experience in addition to all the general advice it offers for running the game. I don't think you're denying this, which was the entirety of my point.

You want to know more? Go ahead... learn. It's not my job to teach you.

If they own the game or have read it (being a free game) then demand they can't have an accurate opinion if they don't play the game.

Who said that? You can have any opinion you like. How accurate it is will depend on a lot of factors.

Would you expect the opinion of someone who's read a rule book to be as informed as someone who's read the book, looked at other resources, and actually played the game? I would guess based on your previous comments, that you would answer "no".

Am I incorrect?

If they have played the game demand they can't have an accurate opinion of the game unless they have played it for a long time.

Who said that?

Good gosh, you're really jumping to conclusions. I don't care what you think about Heart or how it works. It's irrelevant. I have not challenged anyone's opinion of any game other than D&D.

IMO, bringing such games into the discussion is about bringing in an air of authority so that whatever is said about those games cannot be disputed. If it was otherwise then IMO, examples showing where they were actually present would be readily provided.

The entirety of my point in mentioning Heart was to say that it had advice aimed at GMs of different experience levels. That's it. You don't need to know anything more about the game to understand the point I was making. You don't need to know how Heart works to understand what I was saying.

If you want to know more about the game, then go ahead.... you don't need me to elaborate on it any further because doing so is irrelevant to my point.

Oh, I forgot... there is a PWYW Quickstart PDF for it, with a recommended price of $3.

Heart Quickstart Rules

 

[FrogReaver]

Here are some excerpts from the "If This is Your First Time Running an RPG" section... I'm not sure I'm a fan of how it lays all of the out-of -game responsibility definitively at the GM's feet (One of the problems of having a strong stance and a prescriptive slant). Also I don't think it's all that much better or more informative than the 5e advice... granted it is just the beginner advice (but we are stressing total new GM's in this thread and this would be where they start with advice in HEART). I'll post excerpts from the later sections shortly though.

Interesting and thank you!

So would you say it's section for beginning DM's could be mostly summarized by:
1. Finding players and logistics
2. Required materials - rulebook and dice
3. A different description of the basic 5e D&D playloop described in the opening pages of the 5e D&D PHB.

"What follows is a run-down of the most
basic elements of being a GM; if you’re a dab hand
at it already, you can skip this section and move
on to the next one..."

Seems similar to the DMG line referring new DM's to the starter set. Obviously, this is referring existing players to another in book chapter but the same concept applies.

You’re generally responsible for inviting play‐
ers to the game. You can choose people who you
already know and trust, or put out an open call on
a messageboard..

I'm not opposed to this advice, but i could see it being the first to go from an editing perspective.

You’ll also be responsible for determining where
and when the game takes place. A lot of people run
their games out of cafes or pubs, especially if they
live in a major city and there’s one that’s easy to
reach for all players...

I don't understand why this really needs said.

It’s your job to have the rules on hand and make
sure that players have access to them. It’s great if
players buy their own copy of the rulebook, but not
required... Make sure you have the correct dice too: a
few D4s, D6s, D8s, D12s and a handful of D10s.

I actually agree with a small blurb about required and optional content for playing the game.

Required
At least 1 rulebook
Dice

Optional
World and Location based Maps
Battlemaps
Tokens or Miniatures
DM Screen
Etc

During the game, you’re in charge of
everything aside from the actions that player
characters make. For the majority of the game,
this will function as a conversation between you
and the players. You’ll describe the world and act
as the non-player characters, the players will
react as their characters and you’ll react to that in
turn. You only need to break out the dice when a
character attempts something that might fail...

Once the dice have been rolled (see p. 8 for a
more detailed breakdown) it’s up to you to inter‐
pret the results, use any mechanics associated
with them (such as inflicting stress and checking
for fallout) and describe the results in the fiction of
the game. You’re the final arbiter of the rules and
events of the game, but feel free to ask the players
for advice and input if they can help you out.
You’re also in charge of the pacing of the game:
keeping the energy flowing over the course of a
session, giving players moments of high intens‐
ity, letting them relax, calling for a break and so
on...

All this sounds really similar to the basic 5e playloop described in the how to play section of the 5e PHB. Does the playloop need repeated in the DMG? I wouldn't be opposed to it being there but don't think it's necessary. It would be one of the first edit out decisions I'd make if space was a concern.

So far I think I've discovered one thing that I don't remember seeing in any 5e products that I think should be there (though maybe the starter set or essentials includes a quick list of what is needed to play the game.

 

[Imaro]

I'm not misrepresenting your opinion at all... as you say, you haven't shared it yet.

I'm just pointing out the absurdity of thumbing through a book and then using that to comment in a thread where you've said that books aren't sufficient to learn a game.

Doesn't it seem paradoxical?

1. Yes by stating them, even if they haven't be shared, you are misrepresenting them as you don't know what they are.

2. Wait... I said what now? Where did I ever state that "books aren't sufficient to learn a game."? I'm arguing the Essentials set is easily sufficient to learn the game, if anything it seems to be your take that the books are insufficient to learn to play the game with... I'm honestly lost on where this came from.

3. Uhm... maybe it would be paradoxical, if you weren't misrepresenting my comments...

 

[hawkeyefan]

Bringing in other games always feels like an appeal to authority, especially when detailed explanations are almost always lacking. I understand that it can be hard to explain how a rule affects gameplay, especially when that game's play loop and structure is significantly different. But if you say "X" is better you should be willing to back it up and clarify your answers. If you can't or aren't willing do that I see no reason to bring it into the conversation.

This was my point: The Heart RPG offers different types of advice to GMs of different levels.

That's it.

What do I need to explain? There're no rules I'm citing. One doesn't need to know anything about Heart beyond what I've shared. It's simply something that game designers can be aware of and can do or not do. I think it's better when they do it.

What more do I need to clarify?

 

[Oofta]

This was my point: The Heart RPG offers different types of advice to GMs of different levels.

That's it.

What do I need to explain? There're no rules I'm citing. One doesn't need to know anything about Heart beyond what I've shared. It's simply something that game designers can be aware of and can do or not do. I think it's better when they do it.

What more do I need to clarify?

It's kind of like saying "My game is going to be just like Game of Thrones". I've never seen the show and only have vague ideas about it and that show is extremely popular. Maybe I'll watch it if I can get a free trial subscription, but until then references to it are pretty meaningless.

It may be obvious to you what you're saying, but it's just ... not. Most chapters (if not all, I didn't double check) in the DMG have some intro text for new DMs. There's plenty of places in the DMG where they include advice for people that have little experience. Do you really think that anyone that's DMed a previous version or played a significant amount of D&D needs to know what an NPC is?

So you say that they have different types of advice to GMs of different levels. What does that even mean? The DMG has advice targeted to newbie DMs. If I pick another random chapter of the DMG, let's say Chapter 9: Dungeon Master's Workshop. The intro goes into why you would use these rules and some advice on types of rules to avoid.

Spoiler: First few paragraphs

As the Dungeon Master, you aren’t limited by the rules in the Player’s Handbook, the guidelines in these rules, or the selection of monsters in the Monster Manual. You can let your imagination run wild. This chapter contains optional rules that you can use to customize your campaign, as well as guidelines on creating your own material, such as monsters and magic items.

The options in this chapter relate to many different parts of the game. Some of them are variants of rules, and others are entirely new rules. Each option represents a different genre, style of play, or both. Consider trying no more than one or two of the options at a time so that you can clearly assess their effects on your campaign before adding other options.

Before you add a new rule to your campaign, ask yourself two questions:

• Will the rule improve the game?
• Will my players like it?

If you’re confident that the answer to both questions is yes, then you have nothing to lose by giving it a try. Urge your players to provide feedback. If the rule or game element isn’t functioning as intended or isn’t adding much to your game, you can refine it or ditch it. No matter what a rule’s source, a rule serves you, not the other way around.

Beware of adding anything to your game that allows a character to concentrate on more than one effect at a time, use more than one reaction or bonus action per round, or attune to more than three magic items at a time. Rules and game elements that override the rules for concentration, reactions, bonus actions, and magic item attunement can seriously unbalance or overcomplicate your game.

How would a different structure change that? Because it seems like you're saying "Game X includes the starter set so D&D should too!"

 

[FrogReaver]

This was my point: The Heart RPG offers different types of advice to GMs of different levels.

That's it.

What do I need to explain? There're no rules I'm citing. One doesn't need to know anything about Heart beyond what I've shared. It's simply something that game designers can be aware of and can do or not do. I think it's better when they do it.

What more do I need to clarify?

I found it important to see the kind of information that Heart put into the new DM section. So far The excerpts I’m seeing don’t really highlight the need for a new DM section in that book. Outside of reciting the basic playloop or reciting the PHB I’m really not sure what would go into a 5e new DM section?

 

[Imaro]

So this is the information give in Heart on general GM'ing. There isn't anything I really take issue with though I might have minor quibbles as general advice for other games with some of the particulars... I think this just illustrates how hard it is to give general advice for running games while avoiding prescribing specfic approaches or mindsets...

GENERAL TIPS FOR RUNNING
ROLEPLAYING GAMES

If the rules aren’t working for you, feel free to
change them...

If you have a problem with something a player’s
doing, approach them about it (either at the table
or privately after the game) and talk to them
about it like grown-ups...

Ask the players questions, listen to the answers,
and use them to build the game...

Don’t make the players roll dice unless there’s
something at stake...

Nothing is static. Everything can (and should)
change as the player characters interact with the
world...

When you describe a person or place, you should
think about all the different senses...

When you play a non-player character, there’s lots
you can do to make them interesting and enga‐
ging. You can (and should!) put on different voices
and adopt different mannerisms to help set them
apart from others, but you don’t have to be a
master impressionist – you can achieve a lot by
simply changing the tone or pitch of your speech...

For some reason, many roleplaying games seem
to think that everyone talks like the narrator in a
fantasy novel...This is a
lie. Pretty much everyone sounds like “Okay so:
you, uh, you walk into the place. And it’s spooky, and
there’s sort of like – shining lights in there? It’s sharp,
like a crisp line between light and shadow. Anyway
there’s a guy in there – a priest, weird lookin’ guy – and
he says: ‘Hello! Come on in to the temple!’” It’s okay to
use a conversational tone...

Every NPC should want something that the
player characters might be able to help with, even
if they’re not saying it up-front...

Your NPCs can lie. No-one remembers that NPCs
can lie. Player characters are remarkably gullible,
and if you pull it off correctly you’ll look like a dra‐
matic mastermind...

Not everyone is going to roleplay brilliantly with
everyone else. Some groups just don’t gel, and it’s
no-one’s fault. Play with people you like and who
build a brilliant story with you...

Learn the rules as best you can. You don’t need to
know what every single ability does without
having to look it up (we certainly don’t), but the
better you understand the rules, the smoother
the game will run...

If you’re having difficulties working out what hap‐
pens next – especially when your players do some‐
thing unexpected – it’s a good idea to take a five
minute break to collect your thoughts...

There are no right or wrong ways to GM, and what
works for everyone else might not work for you.
The more you do it, the more comfortable you’ll be.

 

[FrogReaver]

So this is the information give in Heart on general GM'ing. There isn't anything I really take issue with though I might have minor quibbles as general advice for other games with some of the particulars... I think this just illustrates how hard it is to give general advice for running games while avoiding prescribing specfic approaches or mindsets...

GENERAL TIPS FOR RUNNING
ROLEPLAYING GAMES

If the rules aren’t working for you, feel free to
change them...

If you have a problem with something a player’s
doing, approach them about it (either at the table
or privately after the game) and talk to them
about it like grown-ups...

Ask the players questions, listen to the answers,
and use them to build the game...

Don’t make the players roll dice unless there’s
something at stake...

Nothing is static. Everything can (and should)
change as the player characters interact with the
world...

When you describe a person or place, you should
think about all the different senses...

When you play a non-player character, there’s lots
you can do to make them interesting and enga‐
ging. You can (and should!) put on different voices
and adopt different mannerisms to help set them
apart from others, but you don’t have to be a
master impressionist – you can achieve a lot by
simply changing the tone or pitch of your speech...

For some reason, many roleplaying games seem
to think that everyone talks like the narrator in a
fantasy novel...This is a
lie. Pretty much everyone sounds like “Okay so:
you, uh, you walk into the place. And it’s spooky, and
there’s sort of like – shining lights in there? It’s sharp,
like a crisp line between light and shadow. Anyway
there’s a guy in there – a priest, weird lookin’ guy – and
he says: ‘Hello! Come on in to the temple!’” It’s okay to
use a conversational tone...

Every NPC should want something that the
player characters might be able to help with, even
if they’re not saying it up-front...

Your NPCs can lie. No-one remembers that NPCs
can lie. Player characters are remarkably gullible,
and if you pull it off correctly you’ll look like a dra‐
matic mastermind...

Not everyone is going to roleplay brilliantly with
everyone else. Some groups just don’t gel, and it’s
no-one’s fault. Play with people you like and who
build a brilliant story with you...

Learn the rules as best you can. You don’t need to
know what every single ability does without
having to look it up (we certainly don’t), but the
better you understand the rules, the smoother
the game will run...

If you’re having difficulties working out what hap‐
pens next – especially when your players do some‐
thing unexpected – it’s a good idea to take a five
minute break to collect your thoughts...

There are no right or wrong ways to GM, and what
works for everyone else might not work for you.
The more you do it, the more comfortable you’ll be.

I’ll go through later with my thoughts on specific excerpts but overall there is some I like, some I don’t and some i think is a bit to prescriptive.

 

[hawkeyefan]

It's kind of like saying "My game is going to be just like Game of Thrones". I've never seen the show and only have vague ideas about it and that show is extremely popular. Maybe I'll watch it if I can get a free trial subscription, but until then references to it are pretty meaningless.

No, it's not. It's like saying "Game of Thrones has a credit scroll at the end." It's just a fact. I didn't even comment on the quality of the info in Heart, simply that it can be done.

So you say that they have different types of advice to GMs of different levels. What does that even mean?

Like I said, it breaks things up a bit (not entirely); there is a section for entirely new GMs, then a section for GMs new to story games, then the advice for GMs to run Heart specifically.

An entirely new GM would therefore benefit from each of those sections.

I found it important to see the kind of information that Heart put into the new DM section. So far The excerpts I’m seeing don’t really highlight the need for a new DM section in that book. Outside of reciting the basic playloop or reciting the PHB I’m really not sure what would go into a 5e new DM section?

Advice for people who are new to DMing D&D?

Now, before we go around the "but the starter set" loop again... I mean someone who may have run the starter set or essentials kit adventures, and is now ready to move on. They are still new DMs in my opinion, and the next logical step would be the DMG.

I’ll go through later with my thoughts on specific excerpts but overall there is some I like, some I don’t and some i think is a bit to prescriptive.

This fear of prescriptive rules and processes... it's bizarre. Even more so for a game other than D&D that's not trying to be all things to all people.

Especially since the first bit of specific advice they give is the obligatory "if the rules don't work, change them" and then the last advice they give is "there's no wrong way to GM". Neither of these bits of advice get in the way of them telling you specific processes of how to play the game.

 

[Oofta]

No, it's not. It's like saying "Game of Thrones has a credit scroll at the end." It's just a fact. I didn't even comment on the quality of the info in Heart, simply that it can be done.



Like I said, it breaks things up a bit (not entirely); there is a section for entirely new GMs, then a section for GMs new to story games, then the advice for GMs to run Heart specifically.

An entirely new GM would therefore benefit from each of those sections.



Advice for people who are new to DMing D&D?

Now, before we go around the "but the starter set" loop again... I mean someone who may have run the starter set or essentials kit adventures, and is now ready to move on. They are still new DMs in my opinion, and the next logical step would be the DMG.



This fear of prescriptive rules and processes... it's bizarre. Even more so for a game other than D&D that's not trying to be all things to all people.

Especially since the first bit of specific advice they give is the obligatory "if the rules don't work, change them" and then the last advice they give is "there's no wrong way to GM". Neither of these bits of advice get in the way of them telling you specific processes of how to play the game.

So you're sticking with the "There's no advice for new DMs in the DMG?" Because I've shown repeatedly that there is. You have yet to actually address how, specifically, that advice should be handled differently.

The DMG is not a tutorial book and it is quite clear on that, both on the cover of the book and in the introduction. It does, however, offer plenty of advice for new DMs. I would say the majority of the book is advice for new DMs, about all an experienced DM needs from the book is the section on treasure.