Regarding Paladin that throw rocks (or whatever)
- Thread starter hopeless
- Start date
Rodrigo Istalindir
Explorer
If you are going to play a paladin, or allow one in your game, the player and the DM have an obligation to the rest of their party (and frankly, at this point, to all of ENWorld), to thrash this stuff out ahead of time and make sure they are pretty much on the same page. It's just gonna end in tears and recriminations and 4000 word posts otherwise.
Jefe Bergenstein
Legend
Paladins - causing more problems than a chaotic evil assassin played by a 14 year old on meth since 1977.
But who am I to question someone's interpretation of the rules that requires murderers to be let go without punishment time and time again because they apologize and promise not to do it again.
But who am I to question someone's interpretation of the rules that requires murderers to be let go without punishment time and time again because they apologize and promise not to do it again.
heimdall
Dwarven Guardian
ehren37 said:
Well, the detect evil at will actually solves this one quite nicely.
True repentance would lead to a change of alignment, and suddenly the orc doesn't show up as evil any more. An orc that says, "I won't do it anymore," but still detects as evil... well, that answers that.As for the roving judge who has decided punishment for a capital offense, I can see that and if that's the player's true motivation, in hindsight I wouldn't rule that an evil act. However, every single player who has played in my campaigns and has chosen to play a paladin (even after being informed of my strict standards... I agree this should be hashed out ahead of time) has always chosen the, "Because he's a [insert type here]." My campaigns have seen Neutral Good kobolds and Lawful Neutral bugbears, though they are an extreme rarity, they do exist in my games.
I look at it from the angle that paladins should always be doing is spreading their faith and beliefs. Giving an evildoer a last chance for a true change of heart furthers that. Even if the evildoer doesn't change and the paladin sentences him/her to death, the paladin has attempted to show mercy and forgiveness. If the evildoer is unregenerate, well, the paladin is then shown to uphold what is good and righteous. The paladin has little to lose and a lot to gain by going this approach. Well, as long as he does it AWAY from the angry mob.
hopeless
Adventurer
Reg: Paladins
Just food for thought.
This thread started because I read about a Paladin that rode down an orc because she didn’t believe this creature deserved a second chance.
I had experienced another player’s idea of what I called a “fanatic”.
When I originally tried to find out if this was perfectly normal for paladins all I got in reply was that this was either a poorly thought out character or just someone trying to take over the group and make them play according to his rules regardless of whether they wanted to or not.
I have run Paladins and I have NEVER run them anything like this, the person who ran these campaigns was the same person who ran that Paladin character that had two goblins dangled over an edge and then cut down and unarmed survivor of that goblin tribe who he used his detect evil ability to pursue even though the lair should have been absolutely coated in evil either because the tribe lived there or the fact the barbarians had wiped them out.
Since my Paladinwas run under 2nd edition rules he had decided Detect Evil in his campaigns could only sense evil INTENT and not evil alignments. He also had a succubus charm my Dervish Paladin because his Protection from Evil aura had to be switched on to work, the fact he didn’t mention this to me until AFTER the succubus had charmed my Paladin character should emphasise just how idiotic he behaved.
The only surviving Paladin character I had was converted to 3rd edition and then killed after trying to help the rest of the party fight off TWO black dragons. One grabbed one pc after another to search their gear for two enchanted crowns and when my Paladin resisted the DM spitefully had the dragon inflict 20pts of damage on my paladin and when the second dragon dived at the party to use its dragon breath my character had the choice of attacking the dragon or pulling back to lay hands on herself as she was down to about 5hp.
She was only 5th level and even with the healing didn’t survive the failed saving throw that followed.
The DMs response was to ask why I didn’t heal myself instead of attack even though I put the party’s welfare ahead of my Paladin… something he still doesn’t have a clue about…
Final point he had warned us at the start of that campaign that because two adventuring companies had joined up that he was going to reduce the numbers, but he didn’t state he would lie and cajole his way to do so.
Why did I say that?
I did mention about my cleric he had aged to over 80 years of age?
Well he wasn’t involved in the main fight as a result of not wearing his armour and trying to help everyone else who didn’t have water walk along with the dwarven cleric, however due to a natural 20 on a spot check was the only one to spot the dragon diving and I asked the dm if I could make an attack of opportunity to which he said yes.
I promptly stated my character raised his hand as if to block the dragon’s plunge and said “No you WILL NOT!” and cast a Control Water spell causing the area behind the makeshift and crude looking arm and hand to sink lowering everyone to the now cleared floor of the lake putting them 10’ away from where they were standing and created a 40’ tall arm that the dragon could only plunge into.
The following week the dm declared the dragon WASN’T SURPRISED and burst through the wall of water managing to shut its wings before it did so and then reopened its wings after it used its dragon breath to maul a couple of other characters in addition to killing my Paladin.
I of course protested stating the dragon was surprised and had the choice of either pulling out of the dive or crashing since it didn’t have time to do that and use its dragon breath.
I was overruled and even the player who later ran the Greyhawk campaign agreed with him saying he could pull it off in his car to which I still don’t know how I stopped myself asking him if he wanted to drive his car through a brick wall and then spray those present once he succeeded in driving his car through that wall.
Needless to say I wasn’t amused and now can’t help wondering why I bothered returning to the group having only stayed until he killed off my cleric character when we were supposed to be heading after an army of devils when he decided an assassin under orders to kill my cleric decided to ignore the fact everyone was under threat of the devils’ and he had no compunction of pulling off the foul deed in a church where under other circumstances should have resulted in the place being cursed given how he likes Ravenloft so much.
Sorry but it still smarts and I can’t help wondering what I was thinking now looking back.
I know how to run a Paladin, he doesn't have a clue, I know you say his actions were perfectly reasonable but I'M SAYING THEY'RE NOT.
What you've been describing is a real world attept at a Paladin of the medieval age, what you've failed to realise is that these weren't Paladins they were religious bigots in a time where fighting opposing faiths was their way to get wealth and power need I point out that in the Crusades it was the Crusaders who were the worst offenders?
In d&d you know there are pantheons consisting of gods some of whom are evil, some are good and many have alliances with each other and as such are supposed to be working together, if you want a crusade in that world you're going to have to walk carefully in case you get all the other deities on your back and his actions can only ever be reasonable if he had been a Paladin of Hextor which is why when I ran a Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign the best Paladin I have ever seen played got to fight a Paladin of the Rotlord as opposing champions of their faiths duke it out as part of the never ending battle between good and evil!
I'd like to see what you think of what I've typed and look forward to seeing your point of view.
Its a shame nobody agrees with everyone all of the time, but that is life for you.
Just food for thought.
This thread started because I read about a Paladin that rode down an orc because she didn’t believe this creature deserved a second chance.
I had experienced another player’s idea of what I called a “fanatic”.
When I originally tried to find out if this was perfectly normal for paladins all I got in reply was that this was either a poorly thought out character or just someone trying to take over the group and make them play according to his rules regardless of whether they wanted to or not.
I have run Paladins and I have NEVER run them anything like this, the person who ran these campaigns was the same person who ran that Paladin character that had two goblins dangled over an edge and then cut down and unarmed survivor of that goblin tribe who he used his detect evil ability to pursue even though the lair should have been absolutely coated in evil either because the tribe lived there or the fact the barbarians had wiped them out.
Since my Paladinwas run under 2nd edition rules he had decided Detect Evil in his campaigns could only sense evil INTENT and not evil alignments. He also had a succubus charm my Dervish Paladin because his Protection from Evil aura had to be switched on to work, the fact he didn’t mention this to me until AFTER the succubus had charmed my Paladin character should emphasise just how idiotic he behaved.
The only surviving Paladin character I had was converted to 3rd edition and then killed after trying to help the rest of the party fight off TWO black dragons. One grabbed one pc after another to search their gear for two enchanted crowns and when my Paladin resisted the DM spitefully had the dragon inflict 20pts of damage on my paladin and when the second dragon dived at the party to use its dragon breath my character had the choice of attacking the dragon or pulling back to lay hands on herself as she was down to about 5hp.
She was only 5th level and even with the healing didn’t survive the failed saving throw that followed.
The DMs response was to ask why I didn’t heal myself instead of attack even though I put the party’s welfare ahead of my Paladin… something he still doesn’t have a clue about…
Final point he had warned us at the start of that campaign that because two adventuring companies had joined up that he was going to reduce the numbers, but he didn’t state he would lie and cajole his way to do so.
Why did I say that?
I did mention about my cleric he had aged to over 80 years of age?
Well he wasn’t involved in the main fight as a result of not wearing his armour and trying to help everyone else who didn’t have water walk along with the dwarven cleric, however due to a natural 20 on a spot check was the only one to spot the dragon diving and I asked the dm if I could make an attack of opportunity to which he said yes.
I promptly stated my character raised his hand as if to block the dragon’s plunge and said “No you WILL NOT!” and cast a Control Water spell causing the area behind the makeshift and crude looking arm and hand to sink lowering everyone to the now cleared floor of the lake putting them 10’ away from where they were standing and created a 40’ tall arm that the dragon could only plunge into.
The following week the dm declared the dragon WASN’T SURPRISED and burst through the wall of water managing to shut its wings before it did so and then reopened its wings after it used its dragon breath to maul a couple of other characters in addition to killing my Paladin.
I of course protested stating the dragon was surprised and had the choice of either pulling out of the dive or crashing since it didn’t have time to do that and use its dragon breath.
I was overruled and even the player who later ran the Greyhawk campaign agreed with him saying he could pull it off in his car to which I still don’t know how I stopped myself asking him if he wanted to drive his car through a brick wall and then spray those present once he succeeded in driving his car through that wall.
Needless to say I wasn’t amused and now can’t help wondering why I bothered returning to the group having only stayed until he killed off my cleric character when we were supposed to be heading after an army of devils when he decided an assassin under orders to kill my cleric decided to ignore the fact everyone was under threat of the devils’ and he had no compunction of pulling off the foul deed in a church where under other circumstances should have resulted in the place being cursed given how he likes Ravenloft so much.
Sorry but it still smarts and I can’t help wondering what I was thinking now looking back.
I know how to run a Paladin, he doesn't have a clue, I know you say his actions were perfectly reasonable but I'M SAYING THEY'RE NOT.
What you've been describing is a real world attept at a Paladin of the medieval age, what you've failed to realise is that these weren't Paladins they were religious bigots in a time where fighting opposing faiths was their way to get wealth and power need I point out that in the Crusades it was the Crusaders who were the worst offenders?
In d&d you know there are pantheons consisting of gods some of whom are evil, some are good and many have alliances with each other and as such are supposed to be working together, if you want a crusade in that world you're going to have to walk carefully in case you get all the other deities on your back and his actions can only ever be reasonable if he had been a Paladin of Hextor which is why when I ran a Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign the best Paladin I have ever seen played got to fight a Paladin of the Rotlord as opposing champions of their faiths duke it out as part of the never ending battle between good and evil!
I'd like to see what you think of what I've typed and look forward to seeing your point of view.
Its a shame nobody agrees with everyone all of the time, but that is life for you.
Rodrigo Istalindir
Explorer
hopeless said:
What we're saying is that the, unlike all the other base classes (except maybe the monk), the paladin comes with role-playing baggage that varies considerably from DM to DM and from player to player. What you think of as an absolute isn't necessarily the case in every game.
Leave the Crusades out of it. Real-world doesn't apply to the game. The mythical Knights of the Round table were as much an inspiration for the paladin as the historical Knights Templar.
Paladins are Lawful Good. Some DMs emphasize the lawful (no killing unarmed sentients, etc) over the Good (orcs are evil with a capital 'E' and must be killed). If you want to play a paladin, you're obliged to the DM and the other players to figure out which way things are going beforehand so you keep the arguments and disruption to a minimum.
Same with alignment. Some games are 'Alignment is pre-destination' -- an orc is evil to his core regardless. Others see alignment as the sum of an entity's actions. Others factor intent.
Nope, not gonna quote the SRD again, nor open the can of worms too much. We did that in TM's paladin thread. I'll just chime in with a lot of folks and say that the #1 problem with paladins is that the DM and players don't work out exactly what the paladinic code is beforehand. And that's what leads to trouble, in threads like this and in game.
Blightersbane
First Post
I like to view Paladins as a focused killer of evil, driven, intent and purposeful in his actions like he was on a mission or had a calling not unlike a quest of sorts. So is the Paladin of our campaigns, with few exceptions. Their focused mind leaves them with little marketable skills and often leads them into a conflict of interest with others, so sense motive & diplomacy are their most used skills, well then there is ride?
As a side note:
Since 3.0 most of our players use the Paladin as a “dip into” class for a few levels, so has been the trend of late. Their great out of the gates but quickly loose momentum with lack of feats and poor spells they are quickly the second class martial & healer.
Blightersbane
As a side note:
Since 3.0 most of our players use the Paladin as a “dip into” class for a few levels, so has been the trend of late. Their great out of the gates but quickly loose momentum with lack of feats and poor spells they are quickly the second class martial & healer.
Blightersbane
Blightersbane
First Post
agreed
carmachu said:
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