Regarding Paladin that throw rocks (or whatever)
- Thread starter hopeless
- Start date
kigmatzomat
Legend
There are a myriad number of problems facing paladins as a class mechanic. There's the vague alignment mechanisms, the emphasis player and/or DM puts on the Lawful or Good aspects, the nature of the deity in question, the society the paladin was born to, the notion of nature vs. nurture, and even predestination. It's a tangle.
There are some reasonable ways to play paladins. Unfortunately, they don't always fit the setting as the DM and/or player interprets them.
First off I recommend reading David Webers "War god" series; it's about an individual whose race was perverted by evil wizards to be blood thirsty horrors that gets called to be a Champion of the god of Justice. Bahzell's unique interpretation of "lawful good" tends to make his god's eyes cross at times without ever ceasing to be "lawful" or "good." He's also the sneakiest, connivingest, often bloodthirsty, and most barbarian paladin you'll likely encounter.
Ways to play a paladin without driving everyone else insane:
Pretend you are "just" a lawful good warrior-priest. Would that person kill prisoners? Would he let an admitted murder go just because he said "sorry"?
Be both Lawful and Good. Lots of people play the "letter of the law" paladin but few include the mercy, charity, and kindness of Good. The simplest way to handle this is to acknowledge that Evil people are prone to evil (much as Good people are prone to good) but that tendencies, even a desire, to do evil is not the same as actually doing evil. Evil people need help to resist those desires and sometimes that help consists of having a holy warrior standing ten feet away, watching their every move.
Be honorable. Your word is valuable and should never be given lightly. You should treat others' words with equal gravity. Oathbreakers should still be dealt with honorably but nothing requires you to accept their word. Which means more than just not believing them, it means disavowing their word as being more meaningful than any other noisesome expulsion of gas from an orifice connected to the digestive tract at the time it was released. Acting like you accept their word at face value while internally discounting it is akin to lying to their face.
Don't be stupid. You shouldn't stab people in the back but nothing says you can't sneak past the hordes of mook guards until you meet the villain face to face in his private sanctum.
Ambushes are only to be used during declared war and against bushwackers. In other words, if somebody out there knows you're hunting them (e.g. War), you can ambush them. If you find someone about to ambush you or other innocents then maybe it's a good idea to see how they like it. By the same token, you can't declare war by ambushing someone.
Geas and Mark of Justice were made for Lawful Good people who can't afford to take someone at their word but don't feel that imprisonment is the correct action.
Lying is bad. Sometimes telling the complete truth is worse. Nothing says you need a band of minstrels proclaiming your status as a Paladin so it's okay to be incognito. If someone calls you out, however, you have to own up. The trick is making sure no one asks the right question and in this case a good offense (bluff/inuendo/diplomacy) is the best defense.
There are some reasonable ways to play paladins. Unfortunately, they don't always fit the setting as the DM and/or player interprets them.
First off I recommend reading David Webers "War god" series; it's about an individual whose race was perverted by evil wizards to be blood thirsty horrors that gets called to be a Champion of the god of Justice. Bahzell's unique interpretation of "lawful good" tends to make his god's eyes cross at times without ever ceasing to be "lawful" or "good." He's also the sneakiest, connivingest, often bloodthirsty, and most barbarian paladin you'll likely encounter.
Ways to play a paladin without driving everyone else insane:
Pretend you are "just" a lawful good warrior-priest. Would that person kill prisoners? Would he let an admitted murder go just because he said "sorry"?
Be both Lawful and Good. Lots of people play the "letter of the law" paladin but few include the mercy, charity, and kindness of Good. The simplest way to handle this is to acknowledge that Evil people are prone to evil (much as Good people are prone to good) but that tendencies, even a desire, to do evil is not the same as actually doing evil. Evil people need help to resist those desires and sometimes that help consists of having a holy warrior standing ten feet away, watching their every move.
Be honorable. Your word is valuable and should never be given lightly. You should treat others' words with equal gravity. Oathbreakers should still be dealt with honorably but nothing requires you to accept their word. Which means more than just not believing them, it means disavowing their word as being more meaningful than any other noisesome expulsion of gas from an orifice connected to the digestive tract at the time it was released. Acting like you accept their word at face value while internally discounting it is akin to lying to their face.
Don't be stupid. You shouldn't stab people in the back but nothing says you can't sneak past the hordes of mook guards until you meet the villain face to face in his private sanctum.
Ambushes are only to be used during declared war and against bushwackers. In other words, if somebody out there knows you're hunting them (e.g. War), you can ambush them. If you find someone about to ambush you or other innocents then maybe it's a good idea to see how they like it. By the same token, you can't declare war by ambushing someone.
Geas and Mark of Justice were made for Lawful Good people who can't afford to take someone at their word but don't feel that imprisonment is the correct action.
Lying is bad. Sometimes telling the complete truth is worse. Nothing says you need a band of minstrels proclaiming your status as a Paladin so it's okay to be incognito. If someone calls you out, however, you have to own up. The trick is making sure no one asks the right question and in this case a good offense (bluff/inuendo/diplomacy) is the best defense.
moritheil
First Post
This paladin was first and foremost stupid, if your tale was accurate, but stupidity does not preclude one from being a paladin.
Let me point out that a great many conceptual differences are behind these paladin debates. Social contract theory, ontological evil, developmental theory, and other very nuanced views of good and evil rub shoulders with "Red Team vs. Blue Team"-style and comic book-style views.
Let me point out that a great many conceptual differences are behind these paladin debates. Social contract theory, ontological evil, developmental theory, and other very nuanced views of good and evil rub shoulders with "Red Team vs. Blue Team"-style and comic book-style views.
moritheil
First Post
Ciaran said:
It's a moot point if the DM claims that a particular orc that was smote was in fact evil.
hopeless said:
Who says a paladin has to be reasonable? A party wants its paladin to be reasonable, of course, but it's not mandatory. Of course, an unreasonable paladin has a higher chance of being offed and thus not sticking around for too long in the adventuring business, but that's not pertinent to the discussion.
Rodrigo Istalindir
Explorer
The non-mechanic issues such as discussed here are the best argument for paladin being a prestige class. At least that way the player and DM would be more likely to discuss it beforehand.
Ciaran
First Post
Yes, but there's a world of difference between "it's OK to smite this orc because he's a known evildoer" and "it's OK to smite any orc because they're all automatically evil." For all you know, that random orc walking down the street is actually a fellow paladin! Maybe you shouldn't try and smite him just for the crime of being orcish...moritheil said:
hopeless
Adventurer
Reg: Hmmm
So perhaps this code of there's should be based on their patron deity perhaps?
The one originally described was a follower of Tyr ot the Triad given what I read in Wyndress's background history.
Nope no sign of hatred of orcs, some link to the Mantled King something about his heir but nothing about running down and killing an orc just because two of her fellow adventurer's had agreed to let him go following several similar incidents involving mercenaries who I assume were either demi-human or human unless corrected. Now if all of them were involved in raiding caravans and pillaging farms then they should all have registered as evil so did she select the survivors from previous battles courtesy of her detect evil?
Anyway, last time I checked Paladins couldn't use torture and dangling 2 off the edge of a gorge just because they laughed at something the halfling said could have been explained off as assuming they insulted the childlike halfling except he definitely reacted to what they said about him. When their comrades started chucking rocks down at him and hit, it seemed a little spiteful to throw the 2 prisoners off the edge ignoring the pleas of the halfling and others.
Then sending a comrade down a corridor to set off a trap the halfling sorceress had detected and was trying to identify going as far to point this out to the others only to have the PALADIN persuade a new player's elven character to go instead of him.
He then blocked the corridor to prevent help reaching the elf when he set off the trap releasing 2 groups of 2 skeletons one at the far end and 1 at the start of the corridor with only the Monk beating him down the corridor EVEN though the Halfling had to have been at the entrance to scan the magic at the back of the corridor.
2' 11" Halfling trying to cast a magic missile down said corridor is told she can't because its blocked...the Paladin by the way tried to turn the skeletons the minor fact if he hadn't blatantly ignored the halfling this situation could have been prevented...
By the way when my Halfling helped immolate that mummy it possessed one of the others, for some reason the dm chose to ignore the fact that both the Paladin and the Rogue being paralysed couldn't have resisted and so the same elf the Paladin had coaxed into that trap ended up being possessed and whilst the Paladin was irked that he couldn't break the Rod of Withering now wants to pursue them earning the halflings help although the halfling only wants to rescue the elf...
Needless to say I don't think he'll be running the next part of that adventure anytime this decade!
So perhaps this code of there's should be based on their patron deity perhaps?
The one originally described was a follower of Tyr ot the Triad given what I read in Wyndress's background history.
Nope no sign of hatred of orcs, some link to the Mantled King something about his heir but nothing about running down and killing an orc just because two of her fellow adventurer's had agreed to let him go following several similar incidents involving mercenaries who I assume were either demi-human or human unless corrected. Now if all of them were involved in raiding caravans and pillaging farms then they should all have registered as evil so did she select the survivors from previous battles courtesy of her detect evil?
Anyway, last time I checked Paladins couldn't use torture and dangling 2 off the edge of a gorge just because they laughed at something the halfling said could have been explained off as assuming they insulted the childlike halfling except he definitely reacted to what they said about him. When their comrades started chucking rocks down at him and hit, it seemed a little spiteful to throw the 2 prisoners off the edge ignoring the pleas of the halfling and others.
Then sending a comrade down a corridor to set off a trap the halfling sorceress had detected and was trying to identify going as far to point this out to the others only to have the PALADIN persuade a new player's elven character to go instead of him.
He then blocked the corridor to prevent help reaching the elf when he set off the trap releasing 2 groups of 2 skeletons one at the far end and 1 at the start of the corridor with only the Monk beating him down the corridor EVEN though the Halfling had to have been at the entrance to scan the magic at the back of the corridor.
2' 11" Halfling trying to cast a magic missile down said corridor is told she can't because its blocked...the Paladin by the way tried to turn the skeletons the minor fact if he hadn't blatantly ignored the halfling this situation could have been prevented...
By the way when my Halfling helped immolate that mummy it possessed one of the others, for some reason the dm chose to ignore the fact that both the Paladin and the Rogue being paralysed couldn't have resisted and so the same elf the Paladin had coaxed into that trap ended up being possessed and whilst the Paladin was irked that he couldn't break the Rod of Withering now wants to pursue them earning the halflings help although the halfling only wants to rescue the elf...
Needless to say I don't think he'll be running the next part of that adventure anytime this decade!
hopeless
Adventurer
Perhaps this should be better defined
Exactly what constitutes an act of evil for a Paladin?
Is it limited to race?
Should their ability to detect evil be treated as a sort of divine judgement pointint out those they need to kill?
Should there be a chance for redemption?
How do they know when what they sense might have been due to a greater evil and what they're sensing is a warning from their deity to help save their soul and by that i don't mean passing murderous judgement since they're incapable of being the servant of their god that they should be?
What do you think, any other restrictions or allowances such as those you've experienced either by playing the role of the Paladin or when someone else did?
Exactly what constitutes an act of evil for a Paladin?
Is it limited to race?
Should their ability to detect evil be treated as a sort of divine judgement pointint out those they need to kill?
Should there be a chance for redemption?
How do they know when what they sense might have been due to a greater evil and what they're sensing is a warning from their deity to help save their soul and by that i don't mean passing murderous judgement since they're incapable of being the servant of their god that they should be?
What do you think, any other restrictions or allowances such as those you've experienced either by playing the role of the Paladin or when someone else did?
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