Reigning in Skills

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

One the things I've noticed in 3.x is that the skill system pushes most characters into being one (or two) trick ponies. The combination of very limited skill points (except for rogues and now bards), cross-class costs, and the cap, meant that everyone just maxed their class skills.

In order to keep skill checks meaningful, DC's had to rise. No longer were you making a balance check to run down the ramp, now you were running across the proverbial ice-covered beam. The result was that at later levels, skill checks seemed to become either automatic success or 'don't even bother rolling.' Certain checks became trivial for PCs that had it as a class skill, and impossible for those that didn't.

I'd like to re-work things so that (A) cross-class skills become attractive places to spend points, and (B) those skills generally considered critical (eg Spot) don't end up even higher than they are now.

One option I've considered is to have the same cost for class and non-class skills, and lowering the max rank to something like (LVL/2+Stat Mod).

 

[BiggusGeekus]

One option I've considered is to have the same cost for class and non-class skills, and lowering the max rank to something like (LVL/2+Stat Mod).

Specializing gives the PCs a neato ability, but after tooling around with an 8th level bard who specializes in Bluff and Diplomacy, I was frankly a little horrified at the numbers he could crank out.

I'm not a huge fan of the cost of cross class skills. I see the point of them, but frankly they're pretty limiting. Would fighters taking Tumble or Bluff really be all that bad? So I agree with you there.

I like your suggested maximum, but some players might find it over-complicated (personally, I like things that way). My only suggestion would be to make Half-Orcs be able to use STR for Intimidate, or they'll never be able to push people around like gnome bards can.

 

[der_kluge]

Cloistered Clerics are skill monkeys, too. I'm playing one in our Harn game, and he's got craploads of knowledge skills. It's not even funny.

But I can see where you're coming from. Skills in D&D seem to be kind of an all or nothing affair. Either people are pathetically weak at it, or they specialize and then are able to produce obscene results.

High level characters have no benefit from putting a few ranks in a lot of things, so it makes sense to specialize in a few skills. But certain skills need more ranks in others. I also don't care for spells replacing skills. There isn't any reason to have Open Locks if the party spellcaster can cast a bunch of knock spells.

 

[billd91]

One thing to keep in mind is that most instances where a really outrageous DC needs to be matched can be done by (or be constructed to be done by) one character in the party. In many instances, a single search score will allow the PCs to find the treasure or secret door. A single spot or listen can help detect an ambush in time to get the rest of the party ready. A single balance check across an icy ledge will allow them to secure a rope to make it easier for other PCs. So I think the problem isn't as extreme as it sounds.

I like having cross class skills cost more, but it can be a hassle too. There are times I think it would just be easier to have them cost the same but leave the same ceilings (level +3 for class skills, 1/2 that for cross class). That would have the tendency to free up skill points for more class (or cross class) skills, but since the ceilings would still be in place, it would tend to create more broadly rounded characters rather than send the character to higher extremes with the class skills they were already going to max out.
I'm not convinced that's a bad thing.

 

[radferth]

I've not had a big problem with it, but I think your cross-class idea is a fine one (as long as you are willing to keep the character from looking for some loophole). I would remind BG that your intimidate skill modifier is hardly the only factor in intimidating somebody. I've seen different DMs run it different ways, but a big, burly half-orc can be plenty intimidating without any sort of skill whatsoever.

 

[AIM-54]

Hmmm...glad to see I'm not the only one feeling that skills can get out of hand. I've thought about it, but can't say I've come up with anything better. I like how you've got the attribute modifier built into the equation, to help limit exploding skill stats.

I've also considered just limiting all characters to a 2-3 point max at 1st level + 1 per each additional level + attribute mods, but that doesn't seem as elegant as yours.

Has anyone actually tried something like this in play?

 

[Crothian]

I have not noticed any ptroblems with skills turning people into one trick or two trick ponies. I have seen people turn their characters into such though. Slkill do not have to be maxed to be usefull. Cross class skills are very helpful, my fighter has skill points in three cross class skills so far and he's only third level.

 

[S'mon]

I think the best approach is _not_ to inflate skill DCs. Who cares if the PC made his Spot roll by 1 pt or 30? If maxing out skills results in a few skills where the PC makes the roll by 20 and fails everything else, they have a strong incentive to spend points cross-class.

I use:

DC 10 - Easy
DC 15 - Moderate
DC 20 - Difficult
DC 25 - Very Difficult
DC 30 - Incredibly Difficult

That works ok from Level 1 to Level 20. The Level 20 PC may make the incredibly difficult roll by 20 points if they've maxed out that skill (+ item buffs), but they'd have been much better off being able to make the normal Difficult rolls in all the other skills too.

BTW this is one good reason NOT to go the Epic Level Handbook approach of giving special benefits the more a skill check is passed by. I treat it as either/or success/fail, which works much better with the d20 mechanic.

 

[WayneLigon]

The result was that at later levels, skill checks seemed to become either automatic success or 'don't even bother rolling.' Certain checks became trivial for PCs that had it as a class skill, and impossible for those that didn't.

That's kind of the point to having and maxing a skill: you can do something very easily that is very difficult for everyone else. At high levels, some things like that should be trivial.

 

[Klaus]

One or Two-trick ponies? Hardly!

With the sheer ammount of useable-even-untrained skills (I wonder why WotC still prefers to mark the "untrained" skills instead of marking the "trained-only" skills...) and the Take 10/Take 20 rules, even a Fighter with a 6 Int (1 maxed skill) can carry out most tasks for the most common skills. Sure, he may not be able to Tumble (trained only, but hey, he's in heavy armor anyway), but he can ride a horse (though nor in combat) or strongarm someone, even though he only mazed out Craft (armorsmithing).