Reigning in Skills

I'm not sure that 'spreading the points' around will make much of a difference. The real problem comes from someone who focuses on skill items, skill feats, and ability enhancing items.

Take your average human rogue with 14 INT. He can fully max out 11 skills. So, for example he could have all the following maxed out:

bluff
use magic device
spot
listen
search
tumble
escape artist
disable device
move silently
hide
balance

He certainly could diversify a little. For example, by 10th level, he probably doesn't need to max out move silently, hide, tumble, and balance because increasingly he has things like invisibility and flight available and feats like mobility or spring attack for when the tumble doesn't work. But getting him to diversify a little into sense motive, climb, and appraise is not going to stop him from having the +30 bonus in bluff and diplomacy, or use magic device and sleight of hand, or whatever he's maxing out.
 

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Skills arn't out of hand, you just are not continuing to throw out the moderate skill check DCs.

Give characters a fight on an icy ledge, the ranger who has put a few ranks in balance is going to be in good shape, while the "I can climb and intimidate 10 int half orc fighter" is going to suffer. Good thing he can climb back up the cliff!
 

Haffrung Helleyes said:
Ari, I'm not so sure about your strategy of removing cross-class skill caps. If you do this, won't every fighter (or every PC, for that matter) take Spot and Listen as maxed out skills? If they do, the only advantage a sneaking rogue has in an opposed roll vs. them is that his Dex is likey far higher than the fighters WIS. Given that the potentially 3-4 characters are trying to spot the rogue (and they all get to roll), I'm not sure this is enough of a spread to make sneaking viable.
I've done it this way for a quite a while and I've never seen a problem with it. The Rogue's Dex & skill item advantage at higher levels over the typical Fighter-types' Wis bonuses is usually significant enough. And most of the time the Rogue is sneaking past lower level guards anyway. However, if the Rogue is trying to sneak by a group of opponents who are the same level he is & maxed out their Spot and Listen scores - he bloody well should have a hard time getting by! He might have to resort to using his brains and try a different approach... ;)

I think DMH's idea of skill ranks becoming increasingly costly the higher you get is not a bad way to go. It's something I've toyed with in the past but never really gotten around to playtesting...

Cheers!
 

A'koss said:
I've done it this way for a quite a while and I've never seen a problem with it. The Rogue's Dex & skill item advantage at higher levels over the typical Fighter-types' Wis bonuses is usually significant enough. And most of the time the Rogue is sneaking past lower level guards anyway. However, if the Rogue is trying to sneak by a group of opponents who are the same level he is & maxed out their Spot and Listen scores - he bloody well should have a hard time getting by! He might have to resort to using his brains and try a different approach... ;)

I think DMH's idea of skill ranks becoming increasingly costly the higher you get is not a bad way to go. It's something I've toyed with in the past but never really gotten around to playtesting...

Cheers!

What he said. But also, I've frankly never seen everyone in the party max out Spot and Listen at the expense of everything else. After all, if they do that, they're ignoring other useful skills (such as, in the case of fighters, Ride, Jump, maybe even Tumble). Also, my players are really good about my rule that they have to justify their skills in-character.

So no, I've never seen the problem you suggest, and even if I had, I'm not sure I see it as a problem. :)
 

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
One the things I've noticed in 3.x is that the skill system pushes most characters into being one (or two) trick ponies. The combination of very limited skill points (except for rogues and now bards), cross-class costs, and the cap, meant that everyone just maxed their class skills.

In order to keep skill checks meaningful, DC's had to rise. No longer were you making a balance check to run down the ramp, now you were running across the proverbial ice-covered beam. The result was that at later levels, skill checks seemed to become either automatic success or 'don't even bother rolling.' Certain checks became trivial for PCs that had it as a class skill, and impossible for those that didn't.

Your problem is in the bold text. You want to keep skill checks "meaningful." And by that, I suppose you mean "difficult" or "risky." Resist that temptation and just let the character who maxed his balance skill run down the ramp while everyone else walks carefully or risks falling. If he's a 15th level character with max ranks in the skill, he's one of the best balancers in the world, why not let some checks be trivial for him.

Doing this will have several effects:
1. There is no more "don't bother trying" unless it's something an unskilled character really shouldn't try--like swimming across the English Channel wearing fullplate. A fighter with Endurance, a modified 28 strength, 22 con, 23 ranks of swim, and a luckstone can do it. Other characters can't... and shouldn't be able to. However, for things like swimming across the local Olympic pool, it's trivial for that fighter (as it should be--he could do it wearing two tower shields and fullplate), but are still possible for other characters.

2. There is less incentive to maximize skills for truly sick bonusses. If you always seem to be pushed into situations where your current ranks make the task risky, then any character is going to want to get better so as to meet the challenge he already faces. If, on the other hand, you run across a lot of fixed, (relatively) low DCs, then there's a reason to say, "OK, I'm good enough now, let's focus on something else." How many characters in 3.0 stopped putting skills into Tumble when they reached a +14 tumble modifier? Even if they could get a few more abilities by going higher (tumble through an enemy's square automatically without provoking an AoO), the ability to usually (absent circumstance penalties, etc) succeed on the most common tasks was enough for most players.

3. There is more incentive to have mediocre skills. If every skill check that comes up in your game is "meaningful"--ie. challenges a max-rank expert--then characters who were thinking about spending some skill points there can observe that there is no difference between a +2 bonus and a +7 bonus when the DC is 28. So, why bother? But, if the party regularly faces DC 15 and DC 20 skill checks, even if they're automatic for the guy with the +20 modifier, +7 is better than +2 so there's a reason for the non-experts to buy a few ranks.

I'd like to re-work things so that (A) cross-class skills become attractive places to spend points, and (B) those skills generally considered critical (eg Spot) don't end up even higher than they are now.

One option I've considered is to have the same cost for class and non-class skills, and lowering the max rank to something like (LVL/2+Stat Mod).

Whatever mechanical changes you make, it won't make any difference unless you change the incentives. It is the need for "meaningful" skill checks that removes the difference between +2 and +7. It is similarly the need for "meaningful" skill checks that keep critical skills as high as they are now. (If most bad guys could be spotted with a 20, you wouldn't see many characters with +30 spot). You need to add more relevant skill checks with DCs between 10 and 20 to the game. If spending five ranks on balance enables you to run down the slope, people might do it. If it's always an ice-covered tightrope, then there's no point in the five cross-class ranks: they won't help.
 

Slkill do not have to be maxed to be usefull. Cross class skills are very helpful, my fighter has skill points in three cross class skills so far and he's only third level.

I think this is truth x 100, and displays the problems those who think that skills can get "out of hand" are experiencing. No one is MAKING you max out your skills, and, in truth, maxxed out skills are something of a waste of rescources, because there are times when you may need a skill that you just don't have access to because no one in the party thought to take it (Knowledge (local), I'm looking at you!!!).

Diversify. You don't need totally high skill bonuses. Cross-class is more viable than some people really consider.

Elder-Basilisk has the idea spot on.
 



No, but by varying the rolls you require, or the ruleset, you can change the equations that determine how he min-maxes his character. If you want a min-maxer to be more than one-dimensional and have a number of non-maxed skills, the way to do it is to create situations where a wide variety of skills will be useful--even if they aren't maxed. If you want the min-maxer to max a few skills, create situations where success is only possible for max-skill characters and don't put in any skill checks that are automatic for max-skill characters (read "possible for characters operating cross-class or at less than maximum ranks").

Skilled min-maxers are probably the easiest kind of player to predict. Change what is useful and they will adapt to take advantage of the new situation.

Ds Da Man said:
Never going to stop a min-maxer, doesn't matter what ruleset you use!
 

I've never seen the problem here. I never have enough skill points and I'm not silly or stupid enough to focus on one or two skills to the exclusion of all else.

I play a Fighter/Rogue in one game. I'm fretting big time about just what I'm going to spend my 11 skill points on at the next level. Sure, I'm keeping Spot and a few others maxed, but there are a host of skills our party needs that I'm just not that good at. Even though we have a Rogue/Wizard and a Bard in the party, we can't possibly cover every skill to "bulletproof" levels.

Heck, even then there is no "this one guy can always make this roll", except perhaps at high levels I've not played at under 3e.

In one previous game, it took four of us making Sense Motive rolls to get the information we needed out of someone, and the one who made the roll had the lowest skill modifier - he just happened to roll a 20.

For that matter, don't the NPCs have the same knowledge of skills and so forth that the PCs have? Don't they wince when they see that shady looking guy coming to question them? Don't they fortify their bargaining position when the slick looking guy comes to talk them up? Hey, Diplomacy the heck out of me - be my friend - I'm still not selling you my merchandise at insane prices or paying you unreasonable prices for yours!
 

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