Reigning in Skills

[Steverooo]

I disagree that skill rolls are out of hand. I agree that climbing a tree should always be DC:15 (-2, if it's wet and slippery). Now allow PCs to take 10, outside of combat, and... Voila! Even a first-level Fighter, with his Climb skill maxed out, and +2/+3 STR Bonus will be making it all the time (depending upon armor modifier).

Now MY solution for spreading out skill points come in multiple parts, and a lot of people will disagree with it, because they will disagree with my assumptions... I like intelligent, capable, knowledgable heros, not dumb, incompetent ignoramous stumble-bums, or "Two-Trick Ponies".

So the first thing that I do is to give ALL characters (PCs & NPCs) a number of Racial Background Skill (RBS) points, equal to (4 + INT) for each 15 years of starting age... These can only be spent upon the RBSs for their race, with a cap of three ranks. RBSs always include some Crafts, Knowledge skills, Performance styles, and Professions, and may also include some adventuring skills. (Dwarves, for instance, live in caves, and can select Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Climb, Balance, Rope Use, Knowledge (Nature) to cover their knowledge of giants, all races get Knowledge (Local), Dwarves can select Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), as they tend to have them, Knowledge (History) as they are long-lived, and Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) due to their stonework... They also can select Perform, any Craft dealing with metal or stone, and certain Professions, such as Bookkeeper (Dwarves like to count their gold!), Brewer (they also like their ale!), etc.... All races can also select to learn any remaining languages that their Racial Background would teach them, if they don't already know them, and at one skill point/language. Which ones they can learn is determined by the racial description in the PHB. Unlisted Crafts, Languages, & Professions can be bought "Cross-Class", but other skills cannot.) Halflings, for instance, get some Crafts, Knowledge skills, Languages, Performance styles, and Professions, but the only other skills they can select from are Survival and Escape Artist (since the PHB describes them as having these skills).

Once a character has been generated, to this point, they then take on a Career. For most, this will be "Commoner", but for the PCs, this will be Fighter, or whatever. They then get (2 + INT) x 4 skill points to spend, as usual, with all of the usual Cross-Class skills, but with a special Bonus Twist!...

Every character gets +1 Rank/level in EVERY Class skill. Thus, a typical Fighter, with 14 INT (+2) will have (2 + 2) x 4 = 16 skill points, plus one Rank/Level in Climb, Jump, Ride, etc. Now since it takes THREE skill points to max out any class skill, a Fighter could max out FIVE skills, at first level, and still have a point to spare. Also, once a skill is maxed out, it will always REMAIN maxed out, and no more skill points ever need to be put into it!

Now, what does the Fighter do with the four skill points that he gets every level? Well, he COULD put three more into another skill, and max it out, too... or he could go Cross-Class, and get two ranks of Spot and Listen, for instance.

(Note that Craft, Profession, Knowledge, & Perform get ONE Rank/Level, not one of each Craft/level. Thus, the Rogue gets one Rank of Knowledge (Local)/Level, the Bard & Wizard get one Rank/Level of their choice, The Paladin gets one Rank Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty)/Level, but the Ranger gets one each of Knowledge (Dungeoneering, Geography, AND Nature), since they're listed separately.)

All the normal rules (Cross-Class Rank limits and doubled cost, Rank-limits for Class skills, etc.) still apply. What I find that this does is allows characters to be more Knowledgable (how many people are truely ignorant of their local area?), pick up a craft and/or profession, or maybe sing and/or play an instrument, if they care to. Since RBSs are "free", and usually apply to things that the race would favor, but a PC wouldn't, the points tend to get spent on things that the PC ordinarily wouldn't take, due to cost. Since it costs them nothing (because RBSs are "free"), Knowledge skills that are otherwise unavailable tend to get taken (A Fighter takes ranks in Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering, History), for instance.)

Like I said, some won't like it, but I prefer smart, knowledgable, capable heroes, and this certainly produces them!

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I am more and more moving towards not max-ranking my skills and I am a self confessed power gamer! Instead I look at the DC's that the skills need to reach and plan to be 1 (ideally 1 or 11) under asap so I can achieve the result without rolling. Contested rolls & 'class-priority' skills are obvious exceptions to the above.

The thing is, once I cured myself of the 'must-max-rank' mindset I am now able to place skill points in actual character development skills, i.e. 3 ranks/+1 stat bonus in heal to make DC15 half the time because the character 'cares' about saving lives.

Cross-class skills won't be taken exclusively by any PC I make, only to fulfil the character concept. I'd never let my powergaming to be so neglected. This is especially true for my NPCs as I like to give even a fighter something unusual to surprise the PC's if possible.

I just want to harmonize power gaming with role playing and I think I've got it. Btw, don't say that this can't be done with 2 measly skill points per level, because it can be.

 

[S'mon]

I have a real bone with items that grant flight, and I'm about to decide that like Haste, Fly is just too powerful for a third level spell.

Great minds think alike - I'm making Fly (self) only and requiring concentration, so the wizard can still Fly but he can't cast spells while doing so and he can't cast it on the other party members. That looks about right for 3rd level in 3e. In 1e M-Us got far fewer spells and every Fly was 1 less fireball so it wasn't a problem.

 

[S'mon]

The problem with the increasing DC game is that you can do some pretty ugly things past level 10, with just a few skills maxed. Plenty of people know the horrors that a high Diplomacy or Bluff character can do (Hostile to friendly in one round? It's not as hard as you think). Think of some other forgotten skills, like Sleight of Hand. Take a -20 to use it as a free action, and the DC to take any item is a flat 20. End result: Lvl 10 rogue (for skill mastery) with a bonus of +30 (more than plausible with a small selection of feats and items) can strip someone of everything they own in a round, and still have time to attack. Start looking close at other skills, and thinking about how to get large bonuses, and the possibilities get pretty scary for a lot of things.

Obviously you need to bear in mind common sense (!) and the rest of the rules mechanics - eg removing items from somebody you're in melee with will at the least require a touch attack just to get hold of the item, unless you have Improved Unarmed Attack it would provoke an AoO too. Removing items from somebody you're talking to seems like the kind of thing a high-level Rogue ought to plausibly be able to do. Maybe not clothing (unless you're running a kinky game) but certainly carried items, jewelry & such.

 

[S'mon]

Hey, Diplomacy the heck out of me - be my friend - I'm still not selling you my merchandise at insane prices or paying you unreasonable prices for yours!

Yeah, Diplomacy is not a magical domination effect and never overrides an NPC's own sense of self interest. IMC with a Diplomacy check you can get a better deal from the merchant, but he'll never sell at what he perceives to be a loss. In fact he'll never sell at less than a reasonable profit - for a typical item maybe he usually buys at 50% "market price" and sells at 100%*, the 'Helpful' merchant might sell to you at as low as 60%, but never at 49%.

If you want to con the merchant into selling at a loss, or buying for more than what he can sell at, that requires Bluff vs the merchant's Appraise and Sense Motive skills.

*For new magic items it may be more like buy (from wizard item-maker) at 100%, sell (to adventurers) at 200%.

 

[Soel]

I am going to have cross-class skills cost only one point, but still have the same ceiling.

I have also changed the Skill Focus feat to a +3 bonus to a check, and a +1 on the ceiling cap of the number of ranks. (example, 1st lvl rogue has max 4 ranks in Tumble. If he takes Skill Focus (Tumble) he gets a +3 to the check and may have a new rank maximum of 5.)

Keep in mind that I want to boost my players skills a little, and am also offering 1d2 skill points/lvl in addition to regular class skill points. (considering upping to d4)

Also considering implementing a "use it, excel in it" system where the learned skills ranks can be raised per usage of said skill, probably in increments of 50 or so, raising exponentially per level. Going to be a lot of extra paperwork for me, but it might prove to be a cool thing. (this will not be revealed to the players, only when they gain the rank, will I tell them as such.)

Any thoughts?

 

[S'mon]

Soel - sounds fine to me. IMCs I give out 'free' skill ranks to represent non-adventuring life experience; handy for non-adventuring NPCs and for PCs who eg spend a year at sea between adventures.

 

[green slime]

The way I see it, the skill system suffers from the following:

1) Too many skill checks are static DC's.
2) Magical Skill Enhancing items are far too cheap (still).
3) Too many spells completely negate the use of certain skills, or add fantastical bonuses rendering years of training mute.

Also, some skills are just too specific (use rope?), when compared to other skills which are very broad (sleight of hand?). Its sort of like having Know (Mathematics) and Know (Calculus).

No Item should grant more than +5 to a skill check. No spell should grant more to a skill check, unless of high level. More checks should be defined in their difficulty by an opposing roll (as per Hide/Spot). Static DCs have a place for static tasks. Tumbling through the occupied square of a grizzled 25th level ranger, doeesn't strike me as one of them.

 

[Henry]

The way I see it, the skill system suffers from the following:

1) Too many skill checks are static DC's.
2) Magical Skill Enhancing items are far too cheap (still).
3) Too many spells completely negate the use of certain skills, or add fantastical bonuses rendering years of training mute.

I'm of the opinion that characters should have some skills that are obscenely easy, if they have the ranks. Assume hitting a baseball from a ball-tossing machine is DC 10 - under normal circumstances, the professional baseball power-hitter should be out there hitting balls flawlessly all day long until his arms get tired; a tumbling master should be able to dive through a threat range as smooth as silk; The expert rider should never have to make a check to guide a horse with his knees. If there are abnormal circumstances, there should be penalties to the roll, but never a higher DC. It may seem like the same thing, but it's not, because performing a skill is performing a skill, only the person doing it changes.

I do believe that skill enhancing items are still underpriced, though - for 10,000 gold, a person focused in Diplomacy, or an Artificer on using magic devices, can do things well outside their level capabilities.

 

[The_Gneech]

Actually, what I'd like is for there to be no class/cross-class distinction, but instead for each class to give a flat per-level bonus to a suite of skills. Just a quick-and-dirty selection might be something like:

BARD: +1/level to Diplomacy, Perform, Persuade
FIGHTER: +1/level to Jump, Swim
ROGUE: +1/level to Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks
RANGER: +1/level to Knowledge (nature), Spot, Survival
WIZARD: +1/level to Craft (alchemy), Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft

...etc.

All classes would also get a pool of skill points to distribute more or less as they do now, to make room for customization. Also, INT BONUS ADJUSTMENT WOULD BE RETROACTIVE just like the Con bonus to hit points are! Yes, I realize that may give some 4th or 8th level character a massive pool of new skill points ... but I don't see that as a problem.

This method would be a lot simpler, a lot more flexible, and would make creating NPCs on the fly a lot faster, too.

-The Gneech