D&D 5E Reliable Talent. What the what?

[WayOfTheFourElements]

How?

Initiative has been rolled and combat is started. There is no "After Bob attacks" because Bob is attacking all the time. We simply abstract that out to a single (or a small number) of attack rolls per round. But, the timing of that attack doesn't actually coincide with any particular action by the PC. There's no way, in game world to know when someone's attack is going to occur during combat. So, it's meta gaming. You are using out of game knowledge (the initiative order) to make in game decisions. How is this not meta gaming?

Having players declare a sense of their action, like just old school D&D, ("I will move to engage the vampire, then hit him with my silvered flail") solves that issue.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Actually, I would defy you to actually play a single session of D&D without meta gaming.

Player A decides to act after Player B in initiative order by readying an action "after he attacks". That's meta gaming pure and simple - how could the in world character possibly know about initiative order?

How do your groups know that there are competing groups of "adventurers"? And, even the fact that this adventure location is for level X and that one is for level Y is meta gaming as well. Sure, don't go into that red dragon's lair. But, how does everyone know where those more dangerous monsters are? Signposts outside the dungeon - "Must be this tall to enter"?

Sure, you can spackle over the metagaming, but that doesn't change the nature of what you are doing.

Actually, I still disagree. Beginning adventurers know not to run off to fight a dragon the same way you know you can kill a fly with a fly swatter, but probably shouldn't do the same thing to a hippo: common sense and previous knowledge. As for finding adventures, I have a list of 200 adventure seeds. When characters are in town, they can decided to listen for rumors and make an Investigation check. On a successful roll, I roll a die and tell them what they hear. Then it's up to them to decided if which adventures they can handle and which ones they probably can't.

Yes, there is some level of abstraction involved, but I wouldn't say there's much/any metagaming happening. It also helps that none of my players have read the Monster Manual so I don't have worry about they using out of game knowledge in that way, either, and very few had any previous table top experience before giving my game a try.

While metagaming may not be completely absent. It's certainly possible to minimize it.

 

[DeanP]

I'd leave it alone, and not change a thing. Player Characters are suppose to be these rare individuals, the ones that accomplish epic deeds. For example, look at the official WOTC story arcs; these aren't for regular ole highwaymen and petty thieves. At 12th level, these are legends in the making. Now, if your rogue's idea of epic is looting an entire town or village, well, let him try to accomplish that task, and he may automatically make a bunch of rolls, and steal whatever you deem he steals, BUT that doesn't mitigate the in-game consequences of his actions. Those towns and villages are filled with people, and some of them might not be run of the mill merchants and craftsmen. A few might be well connected with the means to call in favors or draw from their hidden troves of resources to hire people to track down Mr. Reliable Talent. Some might go so far as to higher some assassins, or address the matter through the Thieves' Guild or any number of other problems. Think like a Guy Ritchie film like Snatch; stealing from the wrong people can get you into some terrible situations- and of course, this constitutes more stories to tell. In short, find a way to make his success drive a story or lead to a story.

 

[5ekyu]

How?

Initiative has been rolled and combat is started. There is no "After Bob attacks" because Bob is attacking all the time. We simply abstract that out to a single (or a small number) of attack rolls per round. But, the timing of that attack doesn't actually coincide with any particular action by the PC. There's no way, in game world to know when someone's attack is going to occur during combat. So, it's meta gaming. You are using out of game knowledge (the initiative order) to make in game decisions. How is this not meta gaming?

Well, lets be clear, it depends on how the GM chooses to interpret a few things as far as actions and reactions goes.

Most GMs i know require reactions to be keyed to or triggered to an event or occurance a character **can percieve**. So for example they would not allow a ready trigger to be "when my wife back at the castle sneezes" when the character themselves is say at a temple miles away with no way to know it.

So, assuming that is "in play" adding in a GM determination that you cannot in character "see an attack" as anything more than one of many identical flurries of action, then "when blah blah attacks" would not be a valid trigger. The character has nothing to react to.

Note however, this "cannot differentiate an attack from flurry of activity" can run afoul of other rules. There are some abilities or spells that trigger on "when attacked" how does the GM handle that? Can i use my reaction to attack as soon as the turn starts if someone is within striking range?

Alternatively, the GM could rule your character does not have to percieve thr trigger event at all. It becomes some powerful event detector of the unknown. "I ready an action to say "enemies have snuck in the south gate" when enemies sheak in the south gate". That of course brings in a bigger problem.

For my games, a character's action can be separated from the general flurry of activity if it can be seen by the observer at all. So, no metagaming. If you cannot see that action, your trigger is not tripped.

"Seen" is usually meant as "perceived or recognized" if other senses are in play and definitive. Its just easier to say "seen" than perceived and recognized.

Ymmv.

But just to be clear, is their a RAW that says you dont "see" attacks as separate from the flurry of action noise? Does thst apply in your games for ranged attacks where ammo is tracked too? If so, how many arrows are expended for those flurry of activity shots?

One final note - i dont interpret any of the combat systems to mean that action simultanaeity overrules characters being able to actually act in a sequence. One character drops a ropes and anchors it while another starts climbing down the rope is a pretty clear "one follows the other" sort of thing withon a turn that i think most GMs would allow and not see as an out of character break to the in-games events.



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[jbear]

That's a valid point.

And honestly, I'm not worried about the loot he might get. It's the story telling aspect that bothers me. There must be some challenge, some drama, some cost, or what's the point? Isn't the whole point of bounded accuracy that even trivial challenges have some small chance of going sideways?

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I think very good responses have been given regarding this issue and the type of challenges a 12th level character should be facing which align with my own views on this topic. The thread looks long, so I may just be repeating what someone else said, and if that is the case I apologise.

My first response would be 'Why is the character wasting time on robbing sprees during downtime which are chump change? Why isn't he taking out crimelords and taking over their patch?'

Secondly, and I think my main reaction to the situation you are encountering with this rogue feature is - you don't need to rely on successful/failed rolls (or the potential for them) to create real drama. The situations themselves can create the drama and tension for you. Yes, you scout the mayor's house perfectly, effortlessly locating all the guards, judging their routines to perfection allowing you to slip inside undetected and make your way into the mayor's private office where you swiftly discover the cleverly hidden false bottom in one of his desk drawers that you unlocked with little effort. What you find inside horrifies you! Make a WISDOM saving throw.

Depending on the result of the WISDOM saving throw:

Fail: You are so struck by the horrors and the hideous secrets you have just learned that you do not react to the footsteps you hear coming down the hall. The door swings open - the mayor himself. "What the hell! Who the ... how dare you! Guards! Intruder! He's trying to murder my daughter! Bring me his head!"


Success. YOu are so struck by the horrors and the hideous secrets you have just learned you react sluggishly to the footsteps you hear coming down the hall. You have just enough time to get over to the window and slide it up as the door swings open. The mayor himself. You are able to hide your face from view as he stutters. "What the hell! Who the ... how dare you! Guards! Intruder! He's trying to murder my daughter! Bring me his head!"


Escape scene ensues. Hook to new grand adventure unlocked. More drama to follow as the real adventure begins. Trivial challenge gone sideways: yes, in a certain sense. There is a chance for that due to the WISDOM save (probably) a rogue weak spot, the possibility of being recognised by an influential member of the community, plus the rogue has learnt a very uncomfortable ruth that can create lots of story good tension in any number of ways in the future and now a new adventure path opens that the team will have to decide how they want to deal with which might be very contrary to their intentions, goals or desires.

So no tension was created as the rogue got in, rolls for stealth and lockpicking all irrelevant - result: you get to the good bits faster. And a new adventure begins. In that same situation, in all honesty, failing those rolls would just have been an obstacle to getting to the new adventure hook.

Thirdly, at level 12, when the rogue and his companions are dealing with 'the real adventure' and not the down time activities really the situations should reflect a much higher difficulty degree required for success right?

Trivial (DC 0) A task that is so easy that isn't worth a check. An adventurer can almost always succeed automatically.

Very Easy (DC 5) Requires a minimum level of competence or a bit of luck to accomplish.

Easy (DC 10) Requires a minimum level of competence or a bit of luck to accomplish.

Moderate (DC 15) Requires a bit more competence to accomplish. Can be completed more often than not by a character with both natural aptitude and specialized training.

Hard (DC 20) Include anything beyond the capabilities of the average person without aid or exceptional talent. Even with a bit of training and skill you still need some luck to pull it off (or maybe some specialized training).

Very Hard (DC 25) Achievable only by especially talented individuals. Nobody else should even bother trying.

Formidable (DC 30) Achievable only by the most trained, experienced, and talented individuals, and they probably still need help to pull it off.

Nearly Impossible (DC 35) An epic feat on which legendary tales are based on. The named masters of a skill come from acts such as these.

Godly (DC 40) Can't be done without assistance unless you're basically a demigod.

So at level 12, when they have got to the good stuff, surely the skill DCs include 'Very Hard (DC25)' and the odd 'Formiddable DC30' challenges in the mix as well, right? So those things you don't want to be so easily breezed through, should still have a chance of failure.

Lastly, I would advocate that the best traps (for example), the ones that create the most tension, are the traps that PCs are aware of but that require clever play and not just high rolls to deal with. SO in this case, the rogue can easily become aware of a trap and get a good read on relevant clues easily. But disarming the trap ... or getting past the trap ... that is going to require the players to absorb the information provided by the rogue to put their heads together and figure out how they want to proceed because how to disarm the trap is not immediately obvious. And even if the rogue could easily get past it, everyone else has to do the same too ... otherwise the rogue woud be all alone on the other side and having to deal with whatever is there waiting. SO even if the rogue can manage to largely remove any chance of their own failure getting past a trap, that doesn't mean that there is no tension. There is just a different kind of tension.

Anyway, hopefully that is helpful in some way.

 

[michealhicks]

I always have professional locksmith service because it ensures you that your home locks are treated well and tightened enough to prevent burglars.

 

[ad_hoc]

Did the spambot find a lockpicking key word and then reply to the thread?

 

[BookBarbarian]

Did the spambot find a lockpicking key word and then reply to the thread?

The machines can necro threads! We're doomed!.

I'm still waiting for a spambot to reference actual spam. Something like:

I always have professional Spam chef service because it ensures you that your home Spam meals are the quality of restaurant Spam meals.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

At least it's an interesting thread. *cooing voice* Who's a nice, little thread-zombie? Yes, you are!

 

[Greg Benage]

I'm glad real-world locksmiths have Reliable Talent, otherwise losing your keys would suck even worse.