Removing Some of the Top-Heavy Elements of Classes

[airwalkrr]

I just had an idea to downplay some of the top-heavy elements of classes. There is already a similar rule in the core rules, but this idea just broadens it a little. In this variant, certain elements of classes are eliminated unless that is your original character class. For example, in the core rules, we already have a rule that gives you more skill points for your 1st level (X + Int) x 4 whereas you get only X + Int for all class levels after that. You also get max hit points at 1st level for your first class. This is simply an extrapolation of those rules to other class abilities. I'll stick to the simple stuff for now. The following things can only be gained from a class if taking it at 1st level:

-Armor, shield, and weapon proficiencies (i.e. you only get the automatic armor, shield, and weapon proficiencies of your first class)
-Wizard spellbook filled with all 0-level spells and Int + 3 spells (instead you get 2 spells of 1st or 0 level, just like a wizard gaining a new wizard level would)

We could adapt this to include other abilities so as to discourage multiclass characters and reduce top-loading of abilities. For example, an extended list of things that are simpler to remove but not drastic alterations follows. The following class abilities can only be gained from a class if taking it at 1st level:

-Barbarian rage (in this case, the barbarian effectively gets -1 rage per day so at 4th level, a multiclass barbarian could rage 1/day)
-Bardic knowledge (this represents a lot of early training and travel so multiclass bards don't get it)
-Turn undead OR one domain (i.e. only characters whose first level is cleric get two domains)
-Animal companion druid class feature
-1st level fighter bonus feat
-1st level monk bonus feat OR flurry of blows
-Detect evil paladin ability
-1st favored enemy ranger class feature
-Trapfinding rogue class feature (this could become a feat)
-Summon familiar sorcerer and wizard class feature

This prevents ever popular dipping tactics such as taking one level of barbarian just for rage or taking a level of cleric plus luck and destiny domains to get a bunch of rerolls. Classes that aren't as prone to multiclass abuse have understandably less important abilities removed.

 

[DarkKestral]

Actually, I'd still give fighter weapon proficiencies at 1st level, or at least offer a single UA weapon group, even if weapon groups aren't being used to those who don't already have any proficiency in any martial weapons. Armor isn't always as necessary, but weapons are critical to fighter character concepts generally, as most fighter feats are weapon-based.

 

[Imban]

The problem with some of these suggestions is that they kinda kill off the class's signature feature.

Like these:

-Barbarian rage (in this case, the barbarian effectively gets -1 rage per day so at 4th level, a multiclass barbarian could rage 1/day)

I don't really approve of making this one so, because it's the effect people are going to want to become a barbarian for. People who want to develop their character to be able to go into a rage in battle aren't going to like this, because they won't be able to pick up that ability until they've dedicated four whole levels to it after the time they decided they'd like to rage.

-Animal companion druid class feature

LAME. Not only are animal companions pretty much useless for multiclass druids (since their power is based on druid class level) already, people who want a pet wolf just for the flavor would be forever unable to get one?

-Turn undead OR one domain (i.e. only characters whose first level is cleric get two domains)

-1st level monk bonus feat OR flurry of blows

-1st favored enemy ranger class feature

-Trapfinding rogue class feature

With any of these, you pretty much guarantee that no one will ever play a cleric, monk, ranger, or rogue unless they start as one of these, since you lose something that you can't ever replace that's actually one of your main abilities.

 

[Lopke_Quasath]

Imban, I think airwalkrr means that anyone who takes a class at 1st level gets the usual abilities. Those who multi-class into something after still the abilities, albeit at later levels, to reflect the fact they are training to get them.

Example: a 1st level barbarian still gets Rage 1/day at 1st level. They've been primitive their whole lives and got the anger (I can't read! AAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHH).
If you multiclass into barbarian, you get the rage ability at 4th level. You gotta go primitive long enough to find that "special place" that lets you foam at the mouth and smash.

airwalkrr- you got my interest, I'd like to hear some more ideas. Although some things I disagree with, such as abilities granted by deities. 1 domain is good for clerics, but removing Turn Undead is too much. Limited Turn Undead uses per day could work for multi-classed clerics.
Paladin's Detect Evil is also something granted by their deity, but perhaps delay Smite Evil. So, at first they can detect the evil guys and once they hone that skill, they learn to strike them down. Delay the monks Wis bonus to AC, or level it out like the Duelist PrC. Multi-classed Rangers can get Track right away, then earn Favored Enemy:whatever after they've used Track on them and fought a few (of who/whatever they want favored).

Some ideas for now.

Cheers

 

[Nyaricus]

airwalkrr, I was assuming, when reading your title that you were being a little more generic with your changes; once I read your post I have to say I don't really care for any of the ideas.

My suggestion to make classes less top heavy would be stuff like getting rid of +2 to saving throws @ first (+1 should be enough) and getting rid of full HP. x4 skill points works (AND makes sense), especially if using the varient I do, where all skills are class skills - but only at first level.

 

[Nifft]

IMHO you are going a bit overboard. However, I like the idea.

In a similar discussion a while back, someone (me?) proposed that each class somehow grant a bonus Feat at 1st level, and that anyone wishing to multi-class must take that feat before picking up the new class. For example, a Rogue who wished to enter Ranger would have to first take Track.

Here's what I remember:

Barbarian: Endurance
Bard: Skill Focus (any Perform)
Cleric: Skill Focus (Kn:Religion)
Druid: Wild Companion (from the WotC web site, counts as Animal Companion)
Fighter: Weapon Focus (any)
Monk: Improved Unarmed Strike
Ranger: Track
Rogue: any one of: Stealthy, Alertness, Deft Hands, Acrobatic, or other +2/+2 deemed appropriate by the DM
Sorcerer: Any of the spell-like ability feats from Complete Arcane
Wizard: Draconic language, Skill Focus (Spellcraft)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Thaniel]

*snip*

I like this a lot. Consider it yoinked.

 

[Imban]

Imban, I think airwalkrr means that anyone who takes a class at 1st level gets the usual abilities. Those who multi-class into something after still the abilities, albeit at later levels, to reflect the fact they are training to get them.

Yes. I specifically referred to that in my post.

no one will ever play a cleric, monk, ranger, or rogue unless they start as one of these

My problem with these was that it would make it so that multiclassing is utterly unviable for three of the base classes and so lame that no one would ever do it for two more. Restrictions that effectively ban something without actually coming out and saying it are underhanded at best.

"But it's still fair! See, you still CAN become a Monk, you'll just actually not have the only way monks can even come close in melee fighting to any other martial class, so your character will become really useless and die and then you'll see that it's better to just be a Fighter 20 like I originally wanted."

(insert giving base classes prerequisites)

This is a lot less disagreeable since you aren't actually out major class abilities forever, although most dippy character builds involve more prestige classes than base classes - and prestige classes have prerequisites anyway.

 

[Machiavelli]

When I design characters, I pretend that PrCs have the same multiclassing issues that base classes do (what with the XP penalties), and I also pretend that any XP penalties of ANY kind are absolutely unacceptable. It results in characters that are neither dippy, nor preposterous. I'm tempted to suggest that these rules I pretend are in effect be adopted as actual house rules.

But plenty of people just LOOOOOOVE multiclassing the heck out of their characters. *shrug*

 

[airwalkrr]

In a similar discussion a while back, someone (me?) proposed that each class somehow grant a bonus Feat at 1st level, and that anyone wishing to multi-class must take that feat before picking up the new class. For example, a Rogue who wished to enter Ranger would have to first take Track.

I like this idea, at least in the sense that it probably accomplishes what I mean to accomplish; that is, discourage multiclassing while leaving it viable. Basically you have to spend a feat to earn the right to multiclass. This is a pretty good way to do things.

It gets me thinking... We could take a step towards doing away with favored classes. Suppose every time you take a new class, it requires a feat: Multiclass. The feat can be taken multiple times. Each time you take it, it allows you to multiclass into a new character class. Humans gain the feat for free with any class they want while demihumans (half-orcs, elves, dwarves, etc.) gain the feat for their favored class. We could probably ditch the 20% XP penalty rule as well since dipping into classes would become less of a problem if it costs a feat, and in my opinion, that is what the 20% XP penalty rule is there for.