Removing The Stat Penaly on Volo's Guide Orcs

[dropbear8mybaby]

Is it?

Ask your human rogue would he like to have con save proficiency or darkvision?

If they answer darkvision then they're not a particularly savvy player.

 

[Horwath]

If they answer darkvision then they're not a particularly savvy player.

So, how they can go around in darkness without magic?

 

[TwoSix]

How does +1 to everything imply "everyone is a winner"? It just means the average is 1 point higher than you think it is: half-orcs are effectively at -1 to everything except Str and Con.

And how is "everyone is a winner" a problem in any case?

Seriously. The results are what matter, not the process. If the baseline stat adjustment was +0, they simply would have adjusted point buy to compensate. And then everyone who wanted to roll would be using 5d6 drop 2 or something. The game is designed with the expectation that you'll probably have a 16 in your main stat, and either a 14 or 16 in your secondary stat at 1st level. If they had adjusted the racial baseline, they'd simply also adjust other parts of the rules to compensate.

 

[jaelis]

As many people have complained, the Powerful Build trait is so meaningless as to be essentially nothing but a flavor ability.

I'm a little surprised at that; I would have said Powerful Build was quite nice for a grappler, so that you can move larger creatures around. That's a bit niche, but it's a good niche.

More generally as a DM I would find it pretty easy to let powerful build have an impact, but I understand that it would also be easy to not let it have much impact (outside of grappling).

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I tend to use in my games more Warcraft and Elder Scrolls based Orcs than the standard D&D ones (i know that in both franchises the orcs started off as closer to classic ones, but i prefer the more known and evolved versions) and was actually pretty disappointed when i read about them having a -2 penalty to int. Since i also feel that stat penalties are a step backwards, i started thinking what would happen if i would just decide to remove the penalty.

It will be a bit time until i get a copy of Volo's Guide to monster so i'm not having a full knowledge of their racials. I remember mentions of the aggressive trait and powerful build, also +2 str. So they are already losing a stat point even without the penalty. Also combat wise they aren't gaining much from int (unless they are wizards, arcane tricksters or eldritch knights). Having possibly better int checks is not a problem for me

So would it be a reasoinable step or am i better off either using the half-orc stats for full orcs or homebrewinga better fitting version for me?

I would mourn the change from a worldbuilding perspective, because I think the Int penalty is interesting and makes sense. But from a balance perspective, the implications are minimal. My powergamer instincts say that it doesn't change the set of builds for which Orc is an attractive option.

[thinking out loud]

I think a more interesting change though would be to keep the Int penalty and add Relentless from the half-orc chassis. Yes, that means that orcs are better at orcing than half-orcs are. So what? Hybrid vigor doesn't have to be a thing.

This would imply that you also need to go back to the PHB and tweak all the orcs there too, but if I'm eyeballing the math right it shouldn't change their CR (doesn't make effective HP cross any of the HP boundaries). It does make orcs a little bit more terrifying, especially at low levels, but that's probably a good thing.

Adding Relentless would have some balance implications, making the Orc more attractive for Barbarian and melee-type builds. It... might eliminate half-orcs from play, unless your players are really excited about the half-orc critical hit ability. There might need to be some additional differentiation there, something that half-orcs get from their human side besides more Int. Maybe make the orcish version of Relentless a form of battle-rage that drives them berserk at the same time?

Blood of Gruumsh: when severely injured, the madness of Gruumsh consumes you, and his music thunders in your veins and sustains your will to live and kill. When you are reduced to 0 hit points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 hit point instead. You feel an intense urge to destroy things and take pleasure in inflicting pain. Until the end of your next short rest, you are at disadvantage on all ability checks and non-melee attack rolls, and you are immune to fear. You can’t use this feature again until you finish a long rest.

So, why would you become a half orc then? Because you want more control over your Blood of Gruumsh feature. Relentless is better than Blood of Gruumsh in almost all ways, but you lose out on Aggressive. Seems like a fair trade, no?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I'm a little surprised at that; I would have said Powerful Build was quite nice for a grappler, so that you can move larger creatures around. That's a bit niche, but it's a good niche.

More generally as a DM I would find it pretty easy to let powerful build have an impact, but I understand that it would also be easy to not let it have much impact (outside of grappling).

As I read the trait, it doesn't have any effect on grappling. If it did it would, as you say, be pretty good.

 

[jaelis]

As I read the trait, it doesn't have any effect on grappling. If it did it would, as you say, be pretty good.

Well not on grapple checks, but the rules are pretty explicit how much weight you can drag and what effect that has on your speed. A Str 20 human can carry 300 lbs, or drag 600 lbs but at 5 ft movement. When carrying or dragging a grappled creature, your movement is halved, so you can move a 300 lb creature 15 ft, or a 600 lb creature 2.5 ft. That effectively limits the trick to 300 lbs, which excludes any number of medium creatures and most large ones.

An orc (or goliath) at 20 Str ups those limits to 600 and 1200 lbs, which is a big improvement. Add in Enlarge Person (which you should try very hard to have available) and they double again.

Obviously, the ability to move opponents around is one of the great things about grappling, and allows for very powerful combos with other characters in the party. Or the trick where you get an ability to jump really high and drop people. So I'd say powerful build is a big deal. I don't know that an orc is better than a goliath, but extra movement abilities for a grappler are also very good (for the same reason).

FYI, there is also the rule that you don't take the 50% move penalty when carrying a creature two sizes smaller than you. It isn't obvious to me whether or not powerful build should count towards that, but even if not it's still good.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Well not on grapple checks, but the rules are pretty explicit how much weight you can drag and what effect that has on your speed. A Str 20 human can carry 300 lbs, or drag 600 lbs but at 5 ft movement. When carrying or dragging a grappled creature, your movement is halved, so you can move a 300 lb creature 15 ft, or a 600 lb creature 2.5 ft. That effectively limits the trick to 300 lbs, which excludes any number of medium creatures and most large ones.

An orc (or goliath) at 20 Str ups those limits to 600 and 1200 lbs, which is a big improvement. Add in Enlarge Person (which you should try very hard to have available) and they double again.

Obviously, the ability to move opponents around is one of the great things about grappling, and allows for very powerful combos with other characters in the party. Or the trick where you get an ability to jump really high and drop people. So I'd say powerful build is a big deal. I don't know that an orc is better than a goliath, but extra movement abilities for a grappler are also very good (for the same reason).

FYI, there is also the rule that you don't take the 50% move penalty when carrying a creature two sizes smaller than you. It isn't obvious to me whether or not powerful build should count towards that, but even if not it's still good.

First of all, the best thing about grappling isn't actually moving others around--it's preventing them from intercepting the squishies or from getting up when knocked prone.

Secondly, the difference between 600 lb. and 1200 lb., in monster terms, is minimal. The MM doesn't even list weights for monsters, so a DM is going to have to make it up, but a horse weighs anywhere between 800 and 2200 lb. So even just a CR 1/2 horse quickly outgrows the range where a max-Strength PC, even an Orcish Barbarian PC, is going to be able to drag it around. Grappling won't be useless at high level because there are plenty of Medium creatures like drow warriors and mind flayers whom you might potentially want to grapple, but the number of creatures who fall into that 600 lb. - 1200 lb. bracket where Powerful Build makes a difference seems likely to be low. Combine that with the limited utility of the "dragging" part of grappling and yeah, that's why Powerful Build isn't renowned by powergamers.

It could be fun in roleplaying scenarios, but it's not something that fits well into combat combos, and combat is the part of the game with the most clearly-defined rules where intense tactical planning, and therefore powergaming, are most likely to occur.

That is why it's not surprising that QuietBrowser and others view Powerful Build as near-meaningless.

 

[jaelis]

First of all, the best thing about grappling isn't actually moving others around--it's preventing them from intercepting the squishies or from getting up when knocked prone.

I wouldn't insist on a single best thing. Dropping someone over a cliff or holding them in a wall of fire is pretty darn good too.

It would indeed be nice if the MM said how much creatures weigh, for that purpose. If your DM ignores the question and divides monsters into "small enough to move" vs "too large to move" and doesn't take PB into account, then obviously PB will be useless to you.

that's why Powerful Build isn't renowned by powergamers.

Well, ktkenshinx rates goliaths gold and credits PB. I didn't see anyone in the thread disagree.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Seriously. The results are what matter, not the process. If the baseline stat adjustment was +0, they simply would have adjusted point buy to compensate. And then everyone who wanted to roll would be using 5d6 drop 2 or something. The game is designed with the expectation that you'll probably have a 16 in your main stat, and either a 14 or 16 in your secondary stat at 1st level. If they had adjusted the racial baseline, they'd simply also adjust other parts of the rules to compensate.

So... if stats were rolled on (4d6 drop lowest + 1), and point buy started at 9s, and Elves had +1 to Dex, and -1 to Str/Con/Wis/Cha, you'd actually be okay with that?

I think psychologically that would change the feel of the game. And games are all about psychology.

I think it's more likely that the game in that case would wind up with Elves having only a single penalty (+1 to Dex and -1 to Con) instead of four of them.