D&D 5E Renewing the D&D Next cosmology through Anthroposophy

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I'd actually argue that in Dragonlance Paladine (Good) holds the balance, and the Evil faction is split into those who want to mainly destroy (lead by Takhisis) and those who want to mainly conquer (lead by Sargonnas). The actual Neutral faction lead by Gilean is more like the Indeps in Planescape, staying on the sideline and focusing on their own projects.

Well, based on your peception, when the Threefold Worldview reaches the fictional world of Krynn, then the cosmology would be renewed, with Takhisis and Sargonnas forming the two evil poles, and the Neutral gods being split into two pantheons.

Sargonnas and the other Law-leaning Evil gods (LE)
The Law-leaning Neutral gods (LN)
Paladine and the other authentically Good gods (CG, NG, LG)
The Chaos-leaning Neutral gods (CN)
Takhisis and the other Chaos-leaning Evil gods (CE)
 
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Worthy idea were they not rendered on a black background in the default forum theme. :) The blue-on-black is completely unreadable to me, I have to highlight it to make it legible. Ruining the effect you're hoping for. Just sayin' is all.

Fair enough...thanks for the heads up. :) I'll reconsider whether or how to use color in future posts.
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
Sargonnas and the other Chaos-leaning Evil gods (CE)
The Chaos-leaning Neutral gods (CN)
Paladine and the other authentically Good gods (CG, NG, LG)
The Law-leaning Neutral gods (LN)
Takhisis and the other Law-leaning Evil gods (LE)
Are you really equating Law with Destruction? And turning Sargonnas chaotic? I see the words "based on your perception" in your post and yet that looks nothing like mine.
 

Mercurius

Legend
Bad/evil is a tricky thing in Steiner's (or any mystical/esoteric) philosophy because it serves a larger, dare I say "good", purpose. It is through the opposing forces of Ahriman and Lucifer that we evolve, that we are able to become more than we are. The idea, then, is not to negate or eradicate these forces, but to integrate and balance them (and not fall into either extreme).
 

Are you really equating Law with Destruction? And turning Sargonnas chaotic? I see the words "based on your perception" in your post and yet that looks nothing like mine.

Oops, I misrepresented what you said. I typed it backwards. It should be Sargonnas as LE and Takhisis as CE.
 


jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
I imagine that's what Pippin said after listening to Elrond speak.
Should I be offended? You do realize that english isn't my language? And I can't think of anyone who speaks more clearly than Elrond. Especially in the movie version where he slows his speech to a crawl so that even a troll could follow it. "Mr. Anderson, you do realize that this here trek to Mordor.. oh, wait. Who am I again?" :angel:

Whereas you were quoting someone quoting other people. The context is lost and stumbling in darkness. Someone give context a torch before it stubs its toe. There's a guy from 1919 saying "so that in reality we have a battle between Lucifer and Ahriman", and I'm thinking 'in reality? Is that really what he meant? Was that an allusion, a speech pattern, or an actual theory of the way of the world?' I don't know. Then he says "You see the far-reaching consequences revealed by such a consideration." You do? If you think they are reality, then isn't it the consequence itself? Oh, but wait, "they are, in reality, dealing with the Luciferic and Ahrimanic elements". There's that pesky call to reality again. But whose reality? The one of the theory? The one of the lecturer? The actual one? Here's a torch, shine some light in to the balance. :p
 

Tallifer

Hero
I am not a fanatic of the Forgotten Realms. Not even a lukewarm supporter.

But since the Wizards fully intend to support Ed Greenwood's Realms, they may as well make its cosmology the core cosmology for the Fifth Edition. Both cosmologies: pre- and post-spell plague with lots of side bars, iconic characters, pantheons, domains, themes, the works. Once it becomes part and parcel of the core books, almost everyone will just accept it fait accompli. The rest will homebrew as they have always done.
 


Bad/evil is a tricky thing in Steiner's (or any mystical/esoteric) philosophy because it serves a larger, dare I say "good", purpose. It is through the opposing forces of Ahriman and Lucifer that we evolve, that we are able to become more than we are. The idea, then, is not to negate or eradicate these forces, but to integrate and balance them (and not fall into either extreme).

Yes, exactly. And the D&D cosmology has a nice continuum, so that the CG and CN forces would be located on the spectrum between Good and Chaotic Evil; and on the other hand, LG and LN would lie between Good and Lawful Evil.
 

Yora

Legend
Occult science indicates that when there is a polarity, then, regardless of what you call the two, they are both bad. For example, what Milton calls "God", is really Lucifer, and what he calls "the Devil" is Ahriman.

From a 1919 lecture:
Since I studied religious studies for several years. Is it from a person describing his own views, or from someone trying to describe the views of other people.

Late 19th and early 20th century is very fascinating for the former, and very shoddy for the later. :p
 



I don't understand the purpose of the linked page.

Yora, it is an example of how a fictional setting can be re-imagined using anthroposophical science as a lense. The webpage is about Middle-earth, but I suggest that the D&D 5e design team do something similar with the D&D cosmology, or at least the default, core cosmology.
 


Yora

Legend
All I see is a list of "Tolkin Character and Antroposophic Character" with a few quotes by Tolkin, but no explaination what the purpose of the list is or how we could use it to improve our settings.
 

All I see is a list of "Tolkin Character and Antroposophic Character" with a few quotes by Tolkin, but no explaination what the purpose of the list is or how we could use it to improve our settings.

The page is spartan, but there's a lot there.

Tolkien's world is already aligned with deep archetypes, in ways that the D&D worlds aren't yet. For example, until 4e renewed the planar cosmology, D&D was structured so that Grey non-ethical Neutrality was at the center of all. This "greyness" (or "redness" in Dragonlance) was encoded into the "DNA" of the settings. I am glad for the work of Gary Gygax, but it is my perception that this Greyness was carried over from Gygax's personality.

I gave some indications earlier in the thread of how the core 5e cosmology and alignment system might benefit from further re-structuring along the lines of anthroposophical occultism. With jonesy's feedback, I shared how spiritual science might be utilized to renew the world of Krynn.
 


Mercurius

Legend
[MENTION=55456]Anselyn[/MENTION], the word "science" was used by Steiner for his work, which he called "Spiritual Science," which was science in the sense that he advocated an empirical approach to spirituality, one not based upon belief or faith but experience (that said, most Anthroposophists treat Steiner's words as gospel and Anthroposophy as a religion). It wasn't science in the narrow sense that it is commonly (and perhaps erroneously) used, that is dealing only with the physical world. By the way, I'm not saying that Steiner is correct in terms of specifics, but that I agree that science need not be limited to physical, sensible realities, that there is a "science of inner domains" that manifests in different cultural contexts, from Tibetan tantra to Hermetic alchemy to Steiner's Anthroposophy.

[MENTION=6688049]DnDPhilmont[/MENTION], thanks for the Tolkien link - interesting stuff there. The similarities support my view that there is a common wellspring of mythology, which most fantasy taps into to various degrees. The reason Tolkien's work is so popular, powerful and evocative is not as much because he brought a new genre, or sub-genre, into being (that would explain his initial popularity, not his sustained popularity), nor is it because he was a particularly skilled writer (some are rather critical of his style which is, at the least, a tad anachronistic and sounds a bit dated), but because he tapped into deep archetypal forms that live within all of us, and thus resonate on a "soul" level.

If we're to use Coleridge's taxonomy of Imagination, I would say that the primary Imagination is a spiritual capacity that few tap into, while the secondary imagination is what could be called "true art" - that echoes and manifests the vision of the primary Imagination. But most art, most fantasy, is merely the regurgitated re-combinations of what Coleridge calls fancy which, he says, deals only with "fixities and definitives" rather than living, archetypal forms. Tolkien's work is so vital, imo, because he had a deep experience of primary Imagination, which was expressed through his secondary Imagination of Middle-earth.

We see glimmers of this in RPGs, but just glimmers. Most RPG ideas are the products of fancy and referential to other works within "The Tradition" (of RPGs). Yet even then you'll find deeply interesting ideas and concepts that have a certain kind of archetypal resonance (which is one of the reasons I'm a collector of settings).
 

Steiner also believes in Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite's nine Angelic hierarchies which could work for the forces of good and also have decent D&D correlates (planetars, solars, etc). I wouldn't go beyond the first three levels, though, as the higher beings are more abstract.

Yes. For example, Tolkien (whether consciously or unconsciously) only employs the first three Hierarchies: the Maiar (Angeloi), Valar (Archangeloi), and Eru Ilúvatar as the Father God (the leader of the Archai)--though there are other Archai mentioned in The Book of Lost Tales: Danuin, Ranuin, and Fanuin (Day, Month, and Year), sons of Anuin (Time), "who is the oldest of the Ainur, and is beyond [the Door of Night], and is subject to Ilúvatar".

Likewise for D&D5e, a reintroduction of 2nd Edition's divine rank and BECMI's Immortal Hierarchy, combined with an awareness of the concept of spiritual-scientific Hierarchies, might be a useful tool.

In the Great Wheel cosmology:
Demigod/Exarch
Lesser Deity
Intermediate Deity
Greater Deity
Overdeity (Lord Ao of the Forgotten Realms, Lady of Pain of Sigil, Highgod of Krynn, Io the Ninefold Dragon)

BECMI cosmology:
Initiate
Temporal
Celestial
Empyreal
Eternal
Hierarch
The Old Ones

Anthroposophical cosmology:


The Third Hierarchy:
  • Angeloi (Sons of Twilight, Sons of Life, the Lunar Pitris, Etheric Devas, the lesser gods, the modern-day spirits of businesses, organizations, and other subnational human groups)
  • Archangeloi (Folk-souls, Spirits of Nations, the Solar Pitris, Spirits of Fire, the leading gods of Greek and Norse mythology, the Astral Devas)
  • Archai (Zeitgeists/Time Spirits, Spirit of an Age, Primal Beginnings, Spirits of Personality, the Greek titans)
The Second Hierarchy:
  • Exousiai (Elohim, Powers, Authorities, Spirits of Form)
  • Dynami (Mights, Spirits of Motion)
  • Kyriotetes (Dominions, Spirits of Wisdom)
The First Hierarchy:
  • The Thrones (Spirits of Will)
  • Cherubim (Spirits of Harmony)
  • Seraphim (Spirits of Love)
The Godhead

I'm not suggesting that D&D hamhandedly shoehorn itself into a real-world occult cosmology. But just as 4e re-composed and streamlined the cosmology, 5e might re-compose the hierarchies or divine ranks. I'll give it more thought and maybe post something later.
 
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