D&D 5E Resource-Draining Model D&D Doesn't Work (for me)

[Jer]

Personally, I find that you can fairly easily maintain balance by simply putting in a bit of variety. Even if you mostly use short, difficult adventuring days, as long as you throw in a handful of longer days in the campaign the players will be far more judicious with their resources and less likely to nova. As long as you avoid nova, you can have short days without unbalancing the classes. The long rest classes essentially become more of a safety valve, since if they're severely pressured by an encounter they can nova in order to prevent a TPK. But it won't be their go to move, since they'll always be wondering if today is going to be a long day. IME, anyway.

I agree, but with the caveat that:

a) IME this gives the game a more "heroic" feel than having 6-8 encounters strung out over the course of a day and
b) Also IME some players really want to feel like they're on the edge of dying all of the time, and the fact that they know that the daily casters can "go nova" in any encounter to save their bacon irritates them (which might just be a game-mechanical restatement of caveat a above, come to think of it).

If you don't have anyone in the group who feels that way and you and your group don't mind the more heroic feel (which can edge into "superheroic" after level 6 or so, again IME - yours may vary), then I think it's a good solution. If you have people in your group who really don't want to play it that way, they likely aren't going to be happy with it.

 

[Flamestrike]

Game still works fine. There’s just less balance between classes. That’s something I don’t prefer but it may be a better alternative than trying to change the whole style and adventure pacing to shoehorn 6-8 encounters per day just for the sake of class balance.

the classes hurt the worst by a short adventuring day are also the easiest to fix with magic items that the casters won’t be very interested in

You dont have to shoehorn in 6 encounters per day.

You have some (encounter) days with 1 encounter, and some with 6 or even more. Some encounters are moderate, some are hard or even deadly. Some come in waves. Some days you'll have ample opportunity to short rest several times; some days you might struggle to have time for a single short rest.

The advantage there is that on the days with multiple encounters and multiple short rests, the Fighters, Warlocks and Monks shine. On short (1 encounter) adventuring days, the Paladins, Barbarians and Casters shine.

Rather than focus on the chore and negativity of the resource management role of the DM; I look at it as boon. You (as DM) have your hands on a couple of different sets of dials to play around with class balance and encounter difficulty.

If the Fighter is getting outshone, give them a Doom clocked dungeon level to deal with, with several rooms, each with encounters, and time for several short rests (but not enough time for a long rest). If the inverse is true and the Fighter is kicking backside, give the party more days of single encounter days.

Finally; remember an adventuring day doesnt have to be a day either. If you lengthen the time required to Long rest (Gritty realism makes it a whole week) your adventuring 'days' are often literally a whole month or more.

Pretty sure you can get half a dozen encounters in over a month.

 

[Jer]

Pretty sure you can get half a dozen encounters in over a month.

Remember that the OP has a group that only meets twice a month, and that the problem was that trying to stretch out 6-8 encounters across multiple months was boring everyone in the group, not that they hadn't figured out how to do it. Keeping things exciting for everyone every session is a hard thing to do, and that's the problem the OP was asking for advice on.

 

[Flamestrike]

Remember that the OP has a group that only meets twice a month, and that the problem was that trying to stretch out 6-8 encounters across multiple months was boring everyone in the group, not that they hadn't figured out how to do it. Keeping things exciting for everyone every session is a hard thing to do, and that's the problem the OP was asking for advice on.

By month i meant game month. By extending long rests to a week long, an adventuring day lasts a month or more.

The OP has the same number of encounters per session. He simply alters the frequency of resource recharge.

If he's having 2 or so combat encounters per session he could also key rests to sessions and simply handwave a short rest at the end of every session (And not before) and a long rest at the end of every 3rd session.

He could also use milestone 'resting' where you get a rest at certain parts of the story or adventure.

 

[Flamestrike]

If your players are prone to abusing the 5MWD you can simply let them rest whenever they want but only refresh resources when the DM says so (milestones, end of the session, every X encounters or whatever).

I prefer the doom clock method myself, but on occasion I'll use the 'you rest but gain no mechanical benefits from it' (while giving the players a stern glare) method from time to time.

Players are smart. They catch on pretty quick.

 

[Celebrim]

Herein is the problem (for me). My group gets together twice a month, if we're lucky. We get about 3 hours of "quality" time each session (after taking out breaks, snacks, general socializing, etc.) Knowing that the majority of our time is going to be spent with "another ho-hum goblin encounter that will only challenge us by spending a 1st level spell and a few arrows" or a trap that might do 1-6 hp of damage, it just doesn't seem a good way to spend time.

So, you are doing it wrong, even by the resource depletion model of challenge. The resource depletion model is how challenge is created in traditional D&D. It cannot perforce be assumed that that is how fun is or ever was created. Challenge is only one of several pillars that fun collectively rests on, nor is resource depletion in any fashion contrary to the other pillars.

What you are talking about is not a failure of "resource depletion" but a general failure of encounter design.

Let me deal with the trap first because it's the most obvious problem. As a general rule, your trap design is bad if:

a) The trap does not seriously threaten or impede the party and the trap is a standalone encounter unassociated with any other encounter.
b) The trap delivers a big burst of damage instantaneously but does not put the party into any other ongoing difficulty.

So it wouldn't matter if the trap delivered a 6d6 damage fireball, if the trap was just isolated on its own then this is a non-encounter and terrible design.

Good traps on the other hand:

a) Deliver ongoing damage or otherwise place party members in ongoing jeopardy.
b) Require party members to work together to extricate themselves from the difficulty.
c) Occur as a hazard as part of some other ongoing difficulty, such as within the context of a fight with goblins.

So a 20' pit trap which when it activated, also rang a gong which summoned goblins to attack the party is a well designed encounter. There is a problem - some party member is down in a hole while a fight is going on - and there is some sort of progress to the encounter. Perhaps the goblins arrive in a series of closely packed waves that utilize different weaponry. Perhaps at some point this encounter is going to encourage the players to maybe flee to regroup, but they are hampered by the fact that someone is down in a pit and can't retreat.

If the encounter is "ho hum" regardless of whether it represents a serious challenge on its own or simply depletes some resources, it's a badly designed encounter. Period. Make your encounters unique by varying the terrain, the weather, the encounter distance, the weapons, the tactics, the goals of the opponents, or introducing three party conflicts with an opportunity to potentially ally with one side or where the PC's may wish to rescue the third party (the goblins are transporting slaves in cages on carts, pulled by wolves, and guarded by outriders on wolves with bows with arrows coated in vegetative poison that inflicts some condition on the target). There is never any excuse for a boring encounter.

That out of the way, if your group only meets irregularly you have to decide what your group prioritizes as fun. If your group really likes to RP, make sure almost everything you do involves some potential RP. Combat doesn't need to be the focus. Or if your group likes dungeon crawling, then make sure you spend a lot of prep on making your rooms original and interesting with different types of problems of exploration, puzzles, combat, and role-play. Or if your group is into wargaming, make sure that the encounters are tactically diverse.

I really don't see this as an issue that 'resource depletion' has much bearing on at all.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I agree, but with the caveat that:

a) IME this gives the game a more "heroic" feel than having 6-8 encounters strung out over the course of a day and
b) Also IME some players really want to feel like they're on the edge of dying all of the time, and the fact that they know that the daily casters can "go nova" in any encounter to save their bacon irritates them (which might just be a game-mechanical restatement of caveat a above, come to think of it).

If you don't have anyone in the group who feels that way and you and your group don't mind the more heroic feel (which can edge into "superheroic" after level 6 or so, again IME - yours may vary), then I think it's a good solution. If you have people in your group who really don't want to play it that way, they likely aren't going to be happy with it.

I don't see how you can avoid unhappy players in 5e, assuming that you have players who don't want to play it that way.

You have two major options in encounter design in 5e:
a) the standard (long) adventuring day, for the majority of which the long rest classes have the capacity to nova and save the party's bacon, even if it might be inadvisable in the long term;
b) fewer but tougher fights in which everyone is encouraged to go nova.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how it's avoidable short of banning long rest classes, playing a less resource driven game, or not playing with people who don't want to play that way.

You can discourage nova outside of emergencies by varying the length of your adventuring days to keep the players guessing, but for the majority of even a long day, the long rest classes will typically have a deeper well to draw upon.

 

[Tony Vargas]

You have two major options in encounter design in 5e:
a) the standard (long) adventuring day, for the majority of which the long rest classes have the capacity to nova and save the party's bacon, even if it might be inadvisable in the long term;
b) fewer but tougher fights in which everyone is encouraged to go nova.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how it's avoidable short of banning long rest classes

That's a lotta classes, and all the classes with significant healing. ;P

Banning the short-rest-heavy options (Warlock, Monk, BM) and resource-light options (Thief, Assassin, Champion) would likely be less intrusive.

 

[CapnZapp]

'Play a different game'

DnD is all about resources (mechanically). That's why things like the DM policing the adventuring day is vital to encounter and class balance.

If those things are not balancing, you're not managing the adventuring day, or doing your job as DM.

I shudder each time I see a DM ramping up encounter difficulty in response to nova tactics or the 5MWD.

That just makes things worse.

Lol You really are one of the holdouts, aren't you, Flame?

Nobody else likes the 6-8 encounter day system. Including official adventure writers.

So my reply is "nah..."?

 

[Flamestrike]

Nobody else likes the 6-8 encounter day system. Including official adventure writers.

We've been over this before, and I've told you and shown you before a billion times that you're wrong.

I can literally list every single freaking module they've brought out for 5E and show you how to implement doom clocks or environmental constraints on resting. They all have overarching Doom clocks,

HoTDQ starts out with several encounters over a single night, with a doom clock attached. There is then a break and you head to the Bandit camp, where you cant just 'nuke a room and fall back for a long rest' (plus; the Bandits are about to leave).

PoTA has you chased by freaking Drow. It contains several closed in areas of 6 or so encounters seperated by longer travel areas.

ToA has environmental constraints (lots of random encounters) a Doom clock, literally dozens of NPCs that want the PCs to do stuff for them (and those quests dont sit around forever) and (again) several closed in areas of several encounters (Camp Vengeance, Nangalore, Omu etc).

CoS has Strahd as the Doom Clock, and has several zoomed in encounter areas where you cant bugger off and rest. It even gives advice for having Strahd send monsters (or personally appear) if the PCs are mucking about.

PoTA has literally 4 x Death cults, working against each other armed with Elemental nukes as a Doom clock. It has several areas with several encounters closely packed in together. You cant exactly invade the Temple of Elemental Air, kill the inhabitants of 1 or 2 rooms, then leave to camp for the night before returning the following day to keep-on-a-killin.

All of those adventures feature several organisations (Red Wizards, Drow, Cultists of varying cults, the Flaming fist etc) led by smart and organised leadership, that are trying to do things (usually thwarting or competing with the PCs). They all also feature overarching Doom clocks, and areas where rest is all but impossible.

The adventure writers dont force the 6 encounter adventuring day on the DM or the players. They (correctly) leave it in the hands of the DM to manage within that conext.

Finally mate, I am trying to be polite hear so bear with me - I'm well aware from my prior dealings with you, that you dont make any effort as a DM to manage or police the adventuring day, tacitly allow the 5MWD and instead spend far more effort whining about the effects of your failings as a DM (encounter and class balance are wonky) on this (and other) internet forums.

Hilariously, seeing as your problems (encounter and class balance) are caused by your own refusal to police or manage the adventuring day, I suggest - as one DM to another - you instead devote the hundreds of hours you spend complaining about the game on the internet to instead improving that area of your DMing.

Your game will be much better for it.