D&D 5E Resting and the frikkin' Elephant in the Room

[clearstream]

So, in regard to NPCs....they very clearly use different rules than PCs. The books do say that you can use PC creation rules for NPCs if you like, but recommends not doing that as it would require a lot of extra work. And in all of the published material, I can't think of any NPC who has been constructed like a PC. Not even such a major character as Strahd uses PC creation rules.

It doesn't matter if they use "different rules". Different rules are still mechanics!

 

[Hussar]

That's not our argument, though. We're saying that mechanics informs world building, not that mechanics are used for it. Those encounters(mechanics informing world building) were had by the NPC in order for it to gain experience(mechanics informing world building) and therefore levels(mechanics informing world building). That the mechanics weren't used doesn't matter.

And that fiat is based on mechanics that informed the DM and players of how the NPC got that way.

But, that NPC NEVER EVER had an encounter. Not a single one. Do you actually run any encounters for an NPC in order to level him or her up to the applicable levels? Did you actually run the hundred or so encounters in order to level from 1st to say about 12th? I highly, highly doubt it.

So, in what way are encounter mechanics being used to develop that 12th level wizard?

 

[clearstream]

But, that NPC NEVER EVER had an encounter. Not a single one. Do you actually run any encounters for an NPC in order to level him or her up to the applicable levels? Did you actually run the hundred or so encounters in order to level from 1st to say about 12th? I highly, highly doubt it.

So, in what way are encounter mechanics being used to develop that 12th level wizard?

And yet, if he went into the area where the encounter table shows us a dragon, he might well be imagined to have encountered said dragon and perhaps lived to tell the tale. Consistency arises most strongly of all from the mechanics.

But hey, we're going around in circles. I accept that nothing I can say will budge your view. And for sure repeating the same point isn't going to move mine. I think I understand the divergent definitions and premises that lead us to this impasse: maybe sometime in the future we will see a way to advance the discussion. Thank you for your patience and tenacity

 

[Sadras]

So, in what way are encounter mechanics being used to develop that 12th level wizard?

I don't believe anyone said that.

In MiBG, the city becomes increasingly more dangerous (i.e. encounters are raised to deadly level).

That would mean, in my game, that the Flaming Fist and the Watch patrols would increase in size/frequency and perhaps be better equiped to deal with the expected deadly encounters that arise in the city in an attempt to restore order and ensure safety.

I might not NPC encounters in the background between x and the Flaming Fist/The Watch, but my world building changes as a result of the expected deadliness of the encounters now encountered within the city.

If I did not compensate/change the patrols due to this increase in deadliness experienced within the city my players would ask me why the Flaming Fist/The Watch are not doing their job or taking it seriously: Why is the Marshal not organising more frequent patrols or ensuring better/stronger security at the gates? Why are the Watch patrols not carrying whistles...etc? Why haven't the dukes of the city imposed a curfew?

Similar to why players would ask what is that tiger doing in a desert or how did it get there?

If you increase the deadliness of encounters (a mechanic) it should flow into your world building naturally. And you can describe it any which way you want in the fiction...it is still world building.

 

[Imaro]

It doesn't matter if they use "different rules". Different rules are still mechanics!

Yes but if you are claiming that mechanics for players (encounter building) must in turn also apply to NPC's... well your argument is kinda based on them using the same mechanics, though it states upfront that they don't..

 

[Krachek]

At first we got village name,
Then we add the number of baker, shoe maker and barber.
Now we should add the number of rats he have killed to see if the baker is not 2nd level?
DnD is switching to the Matrix!
My kingdom has 3 millions citizens. Here are their names, profession, level, social security number, ....

 

[Maxperson]

But, that NPC NEVER EVER had an encounter. Not a single one. Do you actually run any encounters for an NPC in order to level him or her up to the applicable levels? Did you actually run the hundred or so encounters in order to level from 1st to say about 12th? I highly, highly doubt it.

So, in what way are encounter mechanics being used to develop that 12th level wizard?

Yes, yes he did have encounters. MANY of them. That's how he gained levels. We just don't need to know what they were. If he had no encounters, he would not be 12th level. Encounters don't have to be run in order for them to have been encounters. They just have to be monsters that 12th level PC encountered and defeated in order to earn xp.

And again, since you either don't get it, or are willfully ignoring it. The mechanics don't have to be actively used in order for them to affect world building. They just have to inform the DM in order to affect world building. The encounter mechanics inform the DM(and players) that in order to get to 12th level, that wizard had encounters and gained xp, just like PCs. It gives the world consistency.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes but if you are claiming that mechanics for players (encounter building) must in turn also apply to NPC's... well your argument is kinda based on them using the same mechanics, though it states upfront that they don't..

Only 4e said that they don't, and even 4e said that you could do it if you want to. 5e gives three methods for NPCs. For the baker who is not a threat at all, just a few abilities. For monsters, a stat block like the MM. And for NPCs with classes, class levels just like a PC. So that 12th level NPC wizard will be built just like a 12th level PC.

 

[Ovinomancer]

An NPC light cleric in my game is 9th level and has had fully run encounters for every xp earned.

 

[hawkeyefan]

It doesn't matter if they use "different rules". Different rules are still mechanics!

I don't see the point here. I can come up with mechanics where I determine NPC level by rolling a d20. Wow look at that, I got a level 14 NPC by using this mechanic.

If your point is that the mechanics themselves don't matter, just that mechanics are used, I don't know if we're talking about the same thing.

Only 4e said that they don't, and even 4e said that you could do it if you want to. 5e gives three methods for NPCs. For the baker who is not a threat at all, just a few abilities. For monsters, a stat block like the MM. And for NPCs with classes, class levels just like a PC. So that 12th level NPC wizard will be built just like a 12th level PC.

Actually, not really. The books say that you can use PC creation rules for NPCs if you want, but that is not the expectation. Hence, monster manual entries like Archmage, Champion, and the like.

Can you give one example of an NPC in any of the published books that was designed as a PC? I have most of the books, but not all, and although there are no such examples in the books I have, there could be in the other books. Let me know if that is the case.

An NPC light cleric in my game is 9th level and has had fully run encounters for every xp earned.

An NPC cleric in my campaign is level 10 and is pacifist who will not kill, and has never left his home city.