Retcon the dumb "Faction War" and bring back the FULL on Blood War?

[Silverblade The Ench]

Oryan77
well now that I think I can put bazillions of buildings in correct alignment to a torus, with steets etc, I think I can do a "Sigil-scape", you know, a torus with streets of buildings


On folks' other points:

1) The Blood War isn't the Devils and Demons only prime goal..it just keeps 'em busy and thus not slaughtering more Prime worlds..."Because Good is Dumb!"
well it is in this situation as the Good powers are loathe to cause too much interference and have rules..the Fiends do NOT. (Well, the devils do, but they can make a Mafia lawyer look dumb, hehe)

And, look at RL, see we Humans,same species, can HATE each other for such stupid trivial reasons as...football teams!

So, please don't tell me creatures of innate murderous evil could not take a dislike to each other over such a thing as alignment, which maybe an actual "force" the other can "Taste"
Law and Chaos may literally irritate the hell out of each other in their presence. And many other reaons may exist, too: demons want to destroy, devils want to control but you cna't control a chaotic wasteland...
Or they might just have hit it off bad milliosn of years ago and it's gotten worse ever since!

Having a major, horrific planar war like that is a great bit of "flavour" and history for D&D settings.


2) No, the player characters are NOT the be all and end all and that damn well needs to stop, it's unhealthy as heck for a game, IMHO.
They are imporant, but the PCs should get grotesquely executed for going to far, like any other berk who commits treason, mass murder, arson, etc, but the PCs get a chance to escape, atone, go on a suicide mission etc, where as any other bozo would get their "family jewels" fed to an ooze an inch at a time!

PCs fling Fireballs, slaughter small armies...so if they do it to the wrong characters, they should get nasty consequences. of course they can try and escape, deduce, foil, deflect etc such within reason
Sometimes it is good for a character ot get executed, or poisoned by some low level berks with high level poison, who're fed up with their homes being burned down...

PCs should feel like fantastic, capable, amazing, fun folk for the players to game, but, it's important for them sitll to feel that they cna get their asses kicked for going too far, or by a nasty beastie. it makes "sense" to any but the most munchkin of players, internally, and is needed ot give the frisson of fear.

What fun is it to sneer at the evil Duke and put a crossbow bolt through his henchman at a parade, if there is no fear of being brutally murdered in revenge if your PC is caught?
Why shoot the henchman and not the Duke? cause you know the Duke's infernal pact will slaughter ALL your PCs people if he's killed...

PCs deserve rewards for trying the wild and fun stuff, and a kick in the pants for the stupid or just plain tragic.

 

[DaveMage]

Campaign Settings should offer a status quo for you to mess with, not a story for you to follow.

Exactly!

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I like the Blood War, but I can see how it's a bit of a stretch that the fiends would spend so much energy fighting each other when they both have an essentially infinite supply of planes and mortals to corrupt/destroy.

The solution is simple: think of something more finite for the fiends to fight over. Maybe there's a limited supply of the magic components that allows the fiends to enter the Prime, and it's scattered about the planes. That'd sure explain the constant skirmishes and undying hatred.

Any other ideas?

 

[Odhanan]

The Blood War was the embodiment of fundamental differences between evil alignments, and served as a very welcome device to contrast demons from devils, devils from demons, and build specific dungeon elements around the destructive, passionate nature of evil. As such, its flavor was awesome.

Though I do agree that there are valid criticisms as to the way it has been treated at times (portraying Chaotic Evil demons as a unified force comes to mind), the idea itself, and its treatment, often, actually were infinitely better, and more fitting, than anything that came after. YMMV, of course.

 

[Chrono22]

Though I do agree that there are valid criticisms as to the way it has been treated at times (portraying Chaotic Evil demons as a unified force comes to mind)

My justification- the entire abyss is constantly at war with itself. The number of demons that actually manage to get to the battlefields are a fraction of a percent of the total demons that populate the infinite layers of the abyss.
The ones on the surface aren't unified by anything except a common enemy- the devils that keep them in check.

 

[Tallifer]

As an aside.

Many mediaeval writers asserted that the world is full of devils. Although there was the acceptance of the angelic nature of Lucifer, most stories (and indeed the Bible) did not state explicitly that the other devils originated as a fallen host of angels. They were conceived of as embodiments of particular sins, maladies, natural disasters and curses.

The best example I can immediately think of is the stories written about the early monks of Christian Egypt (3rd and 4th centuries A.D.) Demons of lust, greed, sloth, gluttony, et cetera would assail the monks in visions and manifestations, hoping to tempt them away from their calling.

On the one hand, these ideas support the fantastic notion of Alignment, since each devil can be conceived of as an undeviating obsession with a sin. On the other hand, the same sin could be lawful or chaotic: pride could make a a haughty and abusive magistrate or a proud and unrepentant rebel.

(Forgive my laziness and haste for not finding citations.)

Now I am curious about other cultures' and religions' views of devils.

 

[Vanifae]

I guess I liked the Blood War, but I tended to play the fiends and devils as just really, really evil souls enjoying the fruits" of being wicked as per their alignment. I always liked the Planescape vibe, I guess I was the kind of DM that would have them drinking tea at the tavern, creating evil, but being civil about it before they ate your face.

 

[Alzrius]

+1 for liking the Blood War.

It always seemed to me that fiends should be interested in more than just corrupting mortals, particularly since they just seem to do so for evil's own sake, which I found quite two-dimensional.

The idea of demons and devils making war on each other added quite a fascinating backdrop to the mythos of the planes in general, and fiends in particular. It adds all sorts of dimensions to them, from logistics to history to politics. Suddenly, mortals are just one small part of the equation, which is how it should be for such terrible beings.

Also, I saw the Blood War as being a great way to mine for role-playing ideas. Wars have always been fascinating - just look at the number of books, films, and even RPGs based around World War II - and multiply that many times over, and that's what the Blood War adds to your game.

Just one example: I always wanted to run an adventure where the PCs homes are suddenly being attacked by a horde of demons, and the only way they can stop it is to make a deal with some devils to help them fight off the demons...for a price (if that idea sounds like I stole it from Planescape: Torment...well, what can I say? That game rocked!).

 

[Mouseferatu]

It always seemed to me that fiends should be interested in more than just corrupting mortals, particularly since they just seem to do so for evil's own sake, which I found quite two-dimensional.

Except, to me--and to most mythical/religious interpretations--that's exactly what they are.

Call it two-dimensional if you like--I certainly won't argue it--but the literal embodiments of evil should be doing evil "for evil's sake." While individual demons or devils can have additional motivations that make them deeper characters, my feeling is that, as a race, they should appear two-dimensional to those of us who are actually capable of comprehending morality. Because, yeah, they really are just vile without cause.

You know the old saw about how everyone's the hero in their own mind? Not fiends. They're evil, they know it, they love it.

Honestly, fiends aren't who you turn to when you want villains with in-depth and convoluted motivations. Convoluted schemes, yes (at least with devils). But motives? Evil for evil's sake is part of their very nature, IMO. If you want deeper villains, there are plenty of other options.

Giving them more "human" motives and objectives is, in fact, exactly what I meant about Planescape watering them down. These aren't beings who happen to be evil; these are evil incarnate. They honestly don't need--and in many cases shouldn't have--what we would consider "motives."

Suddenly, mortals are just one small part of the equation, which is how it should be for such terrible beings.

And again, I disagree. I agree that not everything has to revolve around the PCs personally... But the mortal world, or Material Plane, or whatever term it holds in whatever edition, is the center of the Multiverse. It's the divine (or primordial, or whatever) creation. It's the source of souls. Mortals absolutely should be the center of attention for the various planar factions, fiends included.

Just one example: I always wanted to run an adventure where the PCs homes are suddenly being attacked by a horde of demons, and the only way they can stop it is to make a deal with some devils to help them fight off the demons...for a price

That's a perfectly good idea for an adventure--I may even steal it myself--but it definitely doesn't require the Blood War to work.

 

[Alzrius]

That's a perfectly good idea for an adventure--I may even steal it myself--but it definitely doesn't require the Blood War to work.

Looking back on that, I didn't do a good job tying that adventure idea to the Blood War. The implication that I was trying to make was that the devils would want to stymie demons naturally, since they're at war, and the PCs know/learn this, and so turn to them in desperation - that the devils get to make a favorable deal with mortals to stop the demons is them making the situation pay off double (which is what devils, natural schemers, should do).

EDIT: Responding to some of Mouseferatu's other points.

Except, to me--and to most mythical/religious interpretations--that's exactly what they are.

And again, I disagree. I agree that not everything has to revolve around the PCs personally... But the mortal world, or Material Plane, or whatever term it holds in whatever edition, is the center of the Multiverse. It's the divine (or primordial, or whatever) creation. It's the source of souls. Mortals absolutely should be the center of attention for the various planar factions, fiends included.

Yes, to us, from our standpoint. But put a much wider multiverse into play, and I think that view becomes parochial. There's more out there than the mortal plane, and while it's certainly different from the Outer or Inner planes, it's not necessarily of any greater importance.

I see some fiends as being primarily concerned with corrupting mortals and gaining cults, certainly. But even those have some greater end in mind beyond the sheer sense of evil joy or satisfaction that comes with ruining someone's soul - some want to become gods, for example, which is desiring greater personal power, and just using mortals to that end.

Other fiends might not care about mortals at all, however. Some might just want to gain greater control of their own plane. Others might want to invade the Upper planes and lay waste to Heaven (and/or other planes of goodness).

A great example of this was the balor-turned-Abyssal Lord Hedrenatherax in Blackdirge's novel Metamorphosis: From Dretch to Demon Lord - he didn't care about mortals, save that his layer happened to have resources to turn their souls into demons; he wanted to rule the layer himself. That, to me, is much more believable, and more interesting, than a demon who wants nothing more than to ruin one life at a time.

While individual demons or devils can have additional motivations that make them deeper characters, my feeling is that, as a race, they should appear two-dimensional to those of us who are actually capable of comprehending morality. Because, yeah, they really are just vile without cause.

Yeah, but a race is made up of individuals.

I can understand not wanting/needing a deeper motivation for NPCs that are in an adventure primarily to be killed by the PCs - each encounter doesn't need much of a (or in some cases, any) backstory. But overall, just saying that there's an entire race of powerful, immortal, intelligent, scheming evil creatures who have no drive or ambition except to basically commit artful murders really seems like a waste.