Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[Eldorian]

Originally posted by Upper_Krust
Yep. All the signs are portents are coming true, soon the prophesised Immortals Handbook will be born unto the world.

And yea, the world did know three winters without spring, and the seas boiled, and the sky was black as sack cloth, the moon as blood, and the Immortals Handbook was birthed of a jackel, screaming into the world on All Hallows Eve. And the people of the world did know suffering, and pain.

---Upper_Krust 3:23

 

[Anubis]

Indeed you are smoking something UK? I mean, lookit me, I'm a fire elemental, I'm made of fire and immune to fire hahaha! OUCH, that god trumps my immunity?!?! Damn, I wish I had fire resistance like, say, a shambling mound, which is made of burnable plant matter. Then I'd still have some protection against this lamer god.

Care to explain what ability allows a deity to trump immunity? I have read the books many times and see NOTHING that allows this. Please give page numbers.

Did you try my little experiment? You'll get the same amount of resistance per CR. That is why they are fundamentally the same system. Mine is just easier to rate. And it is in your system that creatures have a relative SR, as in, if you advance in level, it goes up. In my system, SR 10 is the same no matter what level you are, and it doesn't need to raise in level to be effective at higher levels.

I don't think I was clear enough in explaining. By my system, SR is not just something you calculate on the fly. Calculate all things as they are and use that. For instance, under my revised system, a Lemure has SR 11. Since a Lemure's SR doesn't advance based on power, it is ALWAYS SR 11. If the Lemure gains HD and its CR/EL goes up, SR remains at 11.

Basically, calculate all new SRs and note them, replacing current SR numbers with the new SR numbers. Do not calculate on the fly EVER.

For things that DO advance, well, calculate a new rate of advancement. For instance, let's take the Drow. The SR by the book is 11 + class level. That means the SR Factor is +1.1 (SR is 12 as a CR 1 Level 1 Warrior) and SR is (generally) CR + 11. As such, the CR value of the Drow's SR *never changes*, and is always EL + 11. You see, since the Drow is CR 1.46 and thus CR 1/EL 1, SR starts at 12 and goes up by EL. Piece of cake.

For classes that get SR such as the monk, do the same thing, except you add nothing to the CR *period* because it's a class ability. Monk SR is Level + 10, and thus it starts at 23 when the Monk is Level 13. This means SR is, simply put, always EL + 10. Like I said, piece of cake. On top of that, once you have the number, you never have to worry about it again!

Hiya mate!

Your candy ***.

Know your role and shut your mouth jabroni!

When they are of supernatural origin and your opponent possesses the appropriate portfolio(s) and requisite power.

This must be something you're adding to the rules, because it's nowhere to be found in the current rules. To my knowledge and in the system as-is, immunities are immunites, not "immunities toward everything but certain deities". Immunity is a word with a very narrow definition, ya' know. If you're adding something, you should reconsider. Immune is immune is immune. Immune to fire does not mean immune to mortal fire, it means immune to fire PERIOD, even if from the God Of Fire himself.

1st Ed. Manual of the Planes page 40:

"...Kossuth dwells in a palace built of elemental fire in a hot spot at the centre of the plane. The heat here is so intense that even creatures totally immune to flame, such as fire-elementals, take 1d2 points of damage unless protected by Kossuth."

This is 3rd Edition. I play by 3rd Edition Rules. Please make all arguments as per 3rd Edition. I don't give a rat's behind about the old broken to Hell and retarded rules from editions past.

 

[Eldorian]

Originally posted by Anubis
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Eldorian

Indeed you are smoking something UK? I mean, lookit me, I'm a fire elemental, I'm made of fire and immune to fire hahaha! OUCH, that god trumps my immunity?!?! Damn, I wish I had fire resistance like, say, a shambling mound, which is made of burnable plant matter. Then I'd still have some protection against this lamer god.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Care to explain what ability allows a deity to trump immunity? I have read the books many times and see NOTHING that allows this. Please give page numbers.

Um.. I was kinda agreeing with you Anubis. Immunity is immunity.

Originally posted by Anubis
For things that DO advance, well, calculate a new rate of advancement. For instance, let's take the Drow. The SR by the book is 11 + class level. That means the SR Factor is +1.1 (SR is 12 as a CR 1 Level 1 Warrior) and SR is (generally) CR + 11. As such, the CR value of the Drow's SR *never changes*, and is always EL + 11. You see, since the Drow is CR 1.46 and thus CR 1/EL 1, SR starts at 12 and goes up by EL. Piece of cake.

For classes that get SR such as the monk, do the same thing, except you add nothing to the CR *period* because it's a class ability. Monk SR is Level + 10, and thus it starts at 23 when the Monk is Level 13. This means SR is, simply put, always EL + 10. Like I said, piece of cake. On top of that, once you have the number, you never have to worry about it again!

No no no, friend. See, your system is exactly my system, except you add EL to the SR value after it's calculated. We calculate it the same way, and rate it for CR the same way. My experiment was to find a monster, calculate it's Eldorian SR and it's Anubin SR, and then test that against various spell casters trying to over come it. Since a Drow has SR 11 + EL in your system, it has SR 11 in mine. In your system, you add you EL to a d20 roll to penetrate, and in mine you add your EL minus their EL to your d20. Which is easier, a constantly changing stat that always adds the same amount to CR, or a constant stat that always adds the same amount to CR?

Anyways, I'm thinking that SR should work more like AC for the system anyways, and that it's not SR that the system gets wrong, but magic immunity.

Originally posted by Upper_Krust

1st Ed. Manual of the Planes page 40:

"...Kossuth dwells in a palace built of elemental fire in a hot spot at the centre of the plane. The heat here is so intense that even creatures totally immune to flame, such as fire-elementals, take 1d2 points of damage unless protected by Kossuth."

First of all, as Anubis said, thats first ed. And second of all, I find it ludicrous that fire elementals ever take damage from fire. They are fire. And I seriously doubt the 1e Manual of the Planes spells center wrong =P

Eldorian Antar

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

UK, this guy (Sonofapreacherman, not Eldorian) is hopeless. He thinks goblins and the like are cannon fodder, or as he put it, a carpet of meat. Sonofapreacherman, we hear everything you're saying. You're simply not hearing us tell you that YOU'RE WRONG.

The problem here is a clash of philosophies. The U_K system as it stands is designed to
a) measure the different power levels of critters, and
b) come up with an XP cost for them based on that power.

The assumption here is that XP should be solely related to difficulty of encounters.
But that's not the only role XP serve: they also act as a kind of social engineering tool. If you choose to follow the DMG guidelines, you know you will have PCs advancing at roughly the same rate, whether you play at 1st level or 20th level.
This IMO should also be a goal of the XP system.

Basically, since the basis of encounters is 13.33 of same EL to gain a level, you must give encounters based on what is a 20% challenge and NOT a 50/50 challenge, else your PCs will get maybe one or two fights in before having to rest. The system is DESIGNED so that a party can face four or five encounters of equal EL before resting.

Sadly, I find myself agreeing with Anubis here. It wouldn't be a good idea to switch to an ELvEL (50/50) challenge rating. The DMG uses the same method as UK's system.

Most players (80%+) HATE Levels 1-3 . . . WITH A PASSION . . .

How odd. I'm sure I've not seen a stastical survey capable of producing those numbers. Can you quote a source? Thought not.

Sorry to sound so upset, but this constant bickering is starting to wear my nerves thin. I don't like arguing with brick walls. I will not debate with you anymore, as you refuse to listen to common logic.

You mean, he doesn't agree with you?

Darren

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Hi all!

I think Anubis is getting carried away (or perhaps should be); of course we know from the past that english is not his first language unless it is typed in upper case. Luckily I possess the polyglot feat...



Let me translate this for everyone; I think what Anubis is trying to say is that, although he respects Sonofapreachermans opinion, he doesn't quite agree with it.



Of course Anubis meant to go on to say how not only that every individual DM plays differently but that how dice rolls can greatly affect low level encounters.



But still totally entitled to your opinion.



I think he means enjoy all levels of play but dislike stagnation.



Meaning that the system is modular enough for you to control progression at the rate you think suits your campaign best.



We all appreciate the measured and polite feedback mate.

LOL - I need to get an Anubs to Earth translator

Darren

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Class abilities

Hi UK!

I've been lobbying for this before, and now I'm at it again..
I would really love to see some sort of listing of what you'd rate the different class abilities as being in CR adjustment.

I know that there's no room for it in the pdf, but maybe post your notes here or as a supplement or similar.
It would make it easy to create monsters and PrC's etc.
Fx. even though I can just subtract a rogue's HD, saves, skills etc and thereby find out what the CR mod is per lvl, it's still hard for (at least for me) to judge what 1 die of sneak attack is worth. My hunch says the same as a feat, +0.2 CR, but I'm still a little lost. Pleeeeease?


Something else: considering the heated discussion on SR and CR etc., I think it would be a good idea to release a version 4 of the CR system, before publishing it in the final form in the IH. Obivously, there are still some issuses open for debate....
Just my opinion, anyway.

BTW, what will the power level be for deities in the IH. Meaning, will deities correspond in power to the deities in D&D and F&P? Just curious.

stay cool -

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Eldorian mate!

And yea, the world did know three winters without spring, and the seas boiled, and the sky was black as sack cloth, the moon as blood, and the Immortals Handbook was birthed of a jackel, screaming into the world on All Hallows Eve. And the people of the world did know suffering, and pain.

---Upper_Krust 3:23

Personally I always preferred the May Eve; Walpurgis Night...my birthday, to All Hallows Eve.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Can you smell what the Krust is cookin?

Hi Anubis mate!

Know your role and shut your mouth jabroni!

Just bring it!

This must be something you're adding to the rules, because it's nowhere to be found in the current rules. To my knowledge and in the system as-is, immunities are immunites, not "immunities toward everything but certain deities". Immunity is a word with a very narrow definition, ya' know. If you're adding something, you should reconsider. Immune is immune is immune. Immune to fire does not mean immune to mortal fire, it means immune to fire PERIOD, even if from the God Of Fire himself.

How narrow minded.

This is 3rd Edition. I play by 3rd Edition Rules. Please make all arguments as per 3rd Edition. I don't give a rat's behind about the old broken to Hell and retarded rules from editions past.

*Spinebuster*

3rd Ed. Deities & Demigods Page 26. (Under Immunities)

"...Unless otherwise indicated these immunities do not apply if the attacker is a deity of equal or higher rank."

*Kips Up*

*Krust Bottom*

There are no cosmic powers in 3rd Edition; no Elder Gods; no Time Lords; no deities with epic levels; no soul objects; no proper CR/EL system and no method for determining why God A is more powerful than God B - Why!? BECAUSE I HAVEN'T GIVEN THEM TO YOU YET!

*The People's Elbow*

*1-2-3*

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Eldorian mate!

First of all, as Anubis said, thats first ed.

Handicap match eh!? Two on one.

And second of all, I find it ludicrous that fire elementals ever take damage from fire. They are fire.

I don't think its ludicrous at all, at a certain temperature fire would be converted into plasma, thats even before we take the supernatural 'element' (no pun intended) into account.

All things are possible...at a certain measure of power.

And I seriously doubt the 1e Manual of the Planes spells center wrong =P

Okay - so I can only take so many Americanisms in one day.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

The problem here is a clash of philosophies. The U_K system as it stands is designed to
a) measure the different power levels of critters, and
b) come up with an XP cost for them based on that power.

Absolutely.

The assumption here is that XP should be solely related to difficulty of encounters.
But that's not the only role XP serve: they also act as a kind of social engineering tool.

Arbitrarily.

If you choose to follow the DMG guidelines, you know you will have PCs advancing at roughly the same rate, whether you play at 1st level or 20th level.
This IMO should also be a goal of the XP system.

Does you social engineering take into account the higher proportional mortality rate amongst low-level adventurers?

Sadly, I find myself agreeing with Anubis here. It wouldn't be a good idea to switch to an ELvEL (50/50) challenge rating. The DMG uses the same method as UK's system.

Indeed.

How odd. I'm sure I've not seen a stastical survey capable of producing those numbers. Can you quote a source? Thought not.

Wasn't that in Dragon Magazine a few issues ago...?

You mean, he doesn't agree with you?