Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hi kreynolds mate!

UK. Could I ask a huge favor of you? OK, it's not really huge, but it would be a great help to me. Could you take a look at the fire genasi from the FRCS and let me know what you come up with? I actually came up with below 0.5, but I can't remember the specifics right now.

My first impression is that its akin to +0.3. Its certainly not above +0.5, which makes their +1 Level Adjustment seem somewhat ridiculous.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Well . . . Since healing abilities are the only ones that really get out of whack when used at will, however about CR +1 for every At Will healing ability?

I'll have a think about it, but I am not convinced that I should start messing with individual spells.

For what its worth I have a method for outlining the spell-like abilities of Outsiders and curtailing Deities from simply creating every servitor with 'Heal At Will'.

 

[Clay_More]

The problem is the same here, as it is with many rules in D&D. If you put them to the extreme, they will always break.

If I take every single, non-combat spell in the PHB and give it to a creature (giving it a +20 CR rating), it will obviously seem flawed.

The basic problem in the discussion seems to be, that people make the monsters after the system, instead of applying the system to the monsters.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Clay_More mate!

The problem is the same here, as it is with many rules in D&D. If you put them to the extreme, they will always break.

Absolutely...

If I take every single, non-combat spell in the PHB and give it to a creature (giving it a +20 CR rating), it will obviously seem flawed.

...which is why I try and outline the pertinent Design Parameters to guide people away from making decisions that will blatantly compromise the system.

The basic problem in the discussion seems to be, that people make the monsters after the system, instead of applying the system to the monsters.

I don't see why you can't have both methods in effect. Provided things are kept within the design parameters of course. I have these better outlined in Version 4; hopefully that will go some way to helping the situation.

 

[kreynolds]

Thanks for the response UK.

My first impression is that its akin to +0.3. Its certainly not above +0.5, which makes their +1 Level Adjustment seem somewhat ridiculous.

I came up with a +0.34, but I know I miscalculated somewhere. Anyways, my first inclination is to modify the race so that it equals a _true_ +1, i.e. beef it up a little. It's either that, or I just drop the modifier all-together, but I don't think that would be fair to the core races. What do you think?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi kreynolds mate!

Thanks for the response UK.

Anytime...you should know me well enough by now.

I came up with a +0.34, but I know I miscalculated somewhere. Anyways, my first inclination is to modify the race so that it equals a _true_ +1, i.e. beef it up a little. It's either that, or I just drop the modifier all-together, but I don't think that would be fair to the core races. What do you think?

Well I think it is balances very well with the Core Races, so don't fall into the trap of 'believing the hype' as it were. The facts speak for themselves; its in around +0.3 (give or take a tenth). So I would either play it like that or boost it up to +1 (in fact I would boost it to +1.3).

 

[kreynolds]

(in fact I would boost it to +1.3).

Why is that? Is that were some of the other core races sit, like dwarves or elves?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Why is that?

...simply because we don't count the core race modifiers at all and most of them are +0.3.

Therefore to give a legitimate +1 ECL more than the core races I would boost it to +1.3.

Is that were some of the other core races sit, like dwarves or elves?

No.

Elves +0.3
Dwarves +0.4
Humans +0.3
Half-Orcs +0
Halflings -0.1 (+0.3, -0.4 size)
Gnomes -0.1 (+0.3, -0.4 size)

 

[kreynolds]

...simply because we don't count the core race modifiers at all and most of them are +0.3.

Therefore to give a legitimate +1 ECL more than the core races I would boost it to +1.3.

Gotcha.

Elves +0.3
Dwarves +0.4
Humans +0.3
Half-Orcs +0
Halflings -0.1 (+0.3, -0.4 size)
Gnomes -0.1 (+0.3, -0.4 size)

How very interesting. Out of curiousity, what did you come up with for the tiefling and aasimar? Again, I can't remember my numbers, but I know that both were really close to 0.5.

Also, here's a question. When determining the ECL of a genasi, do you factor character wealth into that? After all, with the genasi at +1, the ECL modifier is used to determine how much character wealth you get. I think I have my wires crossed right now, at least in regards to this little tid-bit.

 

[-Eä-]

Well... It has been a while, but right now I am more into the WoD-system than D&D and because I am playing in a Vampire: The Masquerade campaign, I haven't been too busy with considering UK's system. However:

There has been some discussion on SLAs inflating, especially when you get too many of them with powers whose sum is greater than its parts. I believe I can propose something here than could work. The problem as I see it is that the cost of SLAs is linear to its number: i.e. the cost for three CL 5 SL 3 abilities is the same as the cost for four CL 5 SL 3 abilities divided by four and then multiplied by three. In my opinion this should not be the case!

A way to work around this would be to add a cost to the number of SLAs (possibly based on spell level) and always count the lowest level spell first, so that it will be increasingly costy to take a lot of higher level abilities. After all, it is by this principle level advancement works.

Please tell what you think of this idea, and if you find it interesting, I would be happy to offer some advice on different mechanics for doing this, even construing one.

Edit: I thought one could use html in these boards