[revolution] Exactly WHY is d20 so great, comparing?

Ahh, KK. Occasionally I miss the old Harn flamefests. I'd agree; before d20 was released and we were lingering in the dark ages of 2e (which I didn't play) I actually took a quite extended detour into Storyteller games, specifically Vampire and Werewolf. That characterization is very misleading; there are tons of powergamers who want to mix and match as much as possible in that game. And, as I said earlier, the system itself doesn't promote storytelling anyway. The books are full of pretentious statements about storytelling, and they do contain a lot of fluff, but so did the D&D books of the 2e era, so I think that says more about the era that spawned WW books than it does about the system. In my experience, which certainly includes "getting it" I believe, the storyteller system does not promote Narrativist play any more than d20 does.
 

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Storytelling Techniques

Joshua Dyal said:
In my experience, which certainly includes "getting it" I believe, the storyteller system does not promote Narrativist play any more than d20 does.

Hi all!

You used the "N" word! Now you've done it. ;)

I agree with Joshua. I've been involved in numerous Storyteller games over the past decade, including a five year long Mage campaign. I like these games plenty, but they don't "promote" storytelling through mechanical or technical implementation.

For instance, there is no fluid drama-based designation of task difficulty, like one finds in baseline FUDGE. In fact, though the TN system is a model of simplicity, especially in later iterations, the dice pool mechanic causes such variability in determining probable result, that the GMs ability to gauge dramatic challenge is highly thwarted. This is an issue of core mechanic implementation.

Second, there are no techniques of dramatic interpretive adjudication, like one finds in Everway. Even if one were to port these techniques as a house rule, the dice pools make for vague indicators of success, based upon the broad distribution potential of fortune, which overshadows the karmic allocation of resources.

Third, there is no player-based input on adjudication, enabling group storytelling, like Whispering Vault or Amber. In fact, even at its most fluid designations, like the "magic" system in Mage, GM mandate and direction is the standard. Furthermore, dropping out of "immersive actor" stance is frowned upon in the basic delineation of how the game is played.

Finally, Storyteller's reward structure and progression mechanics are explicitly incoherent to the stated Premise of the games. The efficient allocation of experience is to gear up on the "kewl powerz" or "mad skillz" as encouraged by the mechanical currency of the system. Furthermore, things like glamour, arete, and gnosis are given "kewl powerz"-related designations, but nothing in regard to the Premise. For instance, how does Arete relate to Ascension? Yes, it needs to be high, but what does it do to get the mage there? Beyond emulating the potency of the Mage's magicworks, what does it represent mechanically? The system doesn't give an answer that translates into game play.

For contrasts, look at the Humanity mechanic in Sorcerer or the fluid development options in Heroquest or the obsession-focused currency of Unknown Armies. Reward should further premise; Storyteller's system doesn't.

I think that the big conceptual error that Tom's having here is the "Premise" equates to "Story." It doesn't. For instance, in d20, we have many a game setting that offers Premise, like XCrawl, Midnight, or Afghanistan d20. From the stated premise, each of these d20 settings will allow "stories" to be developed, just as Mage or Wraith does. However, in none of these cases is storytelling facilitated by the system. Yes, "Premise" is the first step towards storytelling, but there is much more involved in actual implementation.

If you want a pure "storytelling" game, look for Once Upon a Time, a cool little card game from Atlas Games. :)

Now back to the main topic. All of the elements of "storytelling" implementation in RPGs that I listed above may be freely ported to d20. Premise is the most obvious, but other elements like "dramatic" designation, stance shifting, focused reward and development, and player adjudication via "Fortune-in-the-Middle" can be smoothly incorporated due to the simple framework at the core of d20's design. It is this fluidity of implementation that makes d20 one of the best games around, regardless of where you stand on the Edwardians triangle of Gamist, Narrativist or Simulationist.

(BTW: if you're having a hard time following my recherche gaming lingo, yet have some morbid desire to pursue the topics mentioned at greater depths, you may want to go visit the Forge. But don't blame me for the headache. ;)

Thanks for reading.

---Merova
 

Nice observations, Merova. However:

Merova said:
(BTW: if you're having a hard time following my recherche gaming lingo, yet have some morbid desire to pursue the topics mentioned at greater depths, you may want to go visit the Forge. But don't blame me for the headache. ;)

Don't do that. Perhaps it's just me, but I find many of the forge's patrons, and Ron in particular, seem so stuck on their model and theories that they tend to backwards-justify things into it.

I find the discussions and FAQ for the rec.games.frp.advocacy to be a much more productive, less pompous take on the subject.
 

I can't doubt that the Storyteller systems are focused on telling stories. However, they're awfully focused on telling ONE KIND of story specifically, that of sentients struggling with their inner beasts (Vampire, Werewolf, Wraith, Mummy), or struggling with resolving personal problems that happen to be the problems of all sentient-kind (Changeling, Mage, Aberrant, Hunter, etc.) granted, this comes from a lot of reading and not much playing, but then, I'm only concerned with the basic book info, here, not what someone has done for their own personal setting.

That's one reason I don't "get" storyteller games (that, and the atrocious dice pool system, IMHO) - neither of those stories interest me as a main premise, and free-form narration has always been no fun for me. The one live Vampire experience I ever had was a GM who had us create our characters (I created a particularly neat Nosferatu, I must say), and stuck us 'round the table, and basically said, "OK, you meet. Now introduce yourselves." After we did that, he looked at us in frustration, ostensibly because we did not provide the plot, impetus, and roleplay all by ourselves. We were expecting tabletop, he gave us LARP.

We didn't play too much after that. I appreciate the concept of free-form, but improv acting and drama didn't interest me in high school or college, and does not interest me now.
 
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I will say that the Storyteller SYSTEM (rather than the games) can be darned near invisible during the course of play, with next to no need to look things up in play.

I play Changeling, and have used the Soryteller system as a vanilla set of rules for more than one game, it being very easy to taylor.

The D20 system's core mechanic can be just as invisible, but many other aspects are less so, especially in combat.

That said, I like and play both systems, and enjoy them. (I also like BRP by Chaosium, and Roll & Keep by AEG)

The Auld Grump
 


Sorry i havent been around, ive not been paying attention.

1. Very interesting discussion this has evolved to, however, this stuff about Storyteller mechanics is a rather lengthy digression, and, frankly, dull (personally, i have zero experience with it).

2. I must say! A week ago, i had never believed that i would ever manage my anger over d20, but you have greatly softened my headache over d20 DnD through your replys! Cursed be thy!, i was quite comfortable being angry and upset.
It was my impression of the DnD-people (you people, and my players) that was maladjusted. I had the idea that using rules as merely tools were unorthodox, and therefore i distanced myself to the game, which obviously was wrong, i shall rather distance myself to the people who dont play the way i like.

3. Still, there are several points i have kept as objections to d20, one of which is that there is too much focus on realism (using a 20-sided die gives room for VERY exessive detail) on the expence of game flow. And another point, which to me is the most heavy argument in me preferring FUDGE to d20: FUDGE has few, very translatable core words (much more based on words than any game ive seen, [it uses adjectives from Terrible to Superb to resolve stuff]) so that the entire mechanics-part of the game (the skeleton which holds it all up above the dust, if you wish) is faded to almost transparency, which is GREAT for a game that is intended to focus on story, like i want to make.

Gorm the Barbarian
 

Psion said:
You know, Tom, you remind me of an old chap by the handle of Kaptain Kantrip. You may have a point to make, but you try to make it with loaded statements that insult the reader, and your point gets lost in the emotive trample.

Wait...you didn't know that I am Kaptain Kantrip??

Just kidding. And I apologize for the loaded statements. Really.

Joshua Dyal said:
In my experience, which certainly includes "getting it" I believe, the storyteller system does not promote Narrativist play any more than d20 does.

Joshua, please forgive me for saying that you're being kind of hard-headed about this...and it doesn't at all seem to me that you are getting it. Can you not acquiesce to the fact that Storyteller games describe everything in terms of theme, mood, scene, characterization, motivation, flaws, allegory, flashbacks, etc. while d20 games do not? I'm not talking about what people do with the books, I'm just talking about the terminology used and what it points toward.
 

Psion said:
It's not hard to ajudicate modifiers by ear (such as using roleplay to set the difficulty of a roll) instead of consulting the book. And it's pretty hard to call that not d20 anymore, since it's in the book.

I'm not talking about modifiers, I'm talking about the entire issue with the way the skill system works.

How a person with a strength of 1 can outjump a persion with a strength of 21 8% of the time, for example (or pick any strength-based contested roll) - when we are speaking of a factor of 16 in strength difference.

Or, as another problem, the vast dichtomy between chances at low and high levels.

Or that BAB, saves and caster level are level based, but everything else is in skills. Why not have it all skills?

Eventually, as you start handling these issues (2d10, move everything into skills and feats, adjusted skill point limits... You start not being d20 anymore.

This is a false dichotomy. Most middle to heavy systems are really not as much different from one another as they are from no system at all.

I believe we have missed eachother's point here.

All too often, when I hear someone say that a system works better than d20, I see a d20 advocate type "The system doesn't matter!"

When I see people say that, I wonder why they're here. A system matters because it works as a guide to a different world - this is especially true in the case of magic - how does a Vancian system versus a system like Ars Magica not affect the story in any way?
 

Tom Cashel said:
Joshua, please forgive me for saying that you're being kind of hard-headed about this...and it doesn't at all seem to me that you are getting it. Can you not acquiesce to the fact that Storyteller games describe everything in terms of theme, mood, scene, characterization, motivation, flaws, allegory, flashbacks, etc. while d20 games do not? I'm not talking about what people do with the books, I'm just talking about the terminology used and what it points toward.

It's a matter of what they encourage.

Storyteller games tell the Storyteller to give out experience points based on showing up, staying in character, solving plots... and so on. You do not get experience for killing mosters in the Storyteller system (and you likely start at more than half your combat potential anyway).

d20 gives out experience for fighting monsters... And that's the only real hard, obvious rule for experience available. Fixable? Definately - I've even made a nice table to go by that handles RP experience and averages a level every 8-12 sessions or so if you drop monster experience entirely.

But it doesn't matter whether or not it's -possible- to fix something, if a certain reward pattern is the default, the majority of game masters will use it, and the majority of players will do what gets them rewarded so.
 

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