[revolution] Exactly WHY is d20 so great, comparing?

[Vaxalon]

"No, no, no, you misheard me. I'm not playing an eleventh level sorceror vampire, I'm playing an eleventh generation Tremere vampire! It's entirely different."

 

[Henry]

"No, no, no, you misheard me. I'm not playing an eleventh level sorceror vampire, I'm playing an eleventh generation Tremere vampire! It's entirely different."

Actually, make that 6th or 7th generation Tremere, and it sounds better.

 

[Desdichado]

Ummm, Call of Cthulhu predates Stormbringer though they were both in the works at the same time, with Call of Cthulhu coming out just a few months before Stormbringer. Both were written using the Basic Role Play system, which was in turn based on Runequest - with the system simplified and streamlined.

Either way, my point is that the system isn't customized for the genre, and it apparently works well in genres that are completely different. It's my opinion that d20 does the same thing.

 

[woodelf]

I dont think its great, just to sort that out right away.

I think its too rule-heavy, and too based on numbers, and me being Norwegian, i would like something that could have more loose conceptual grammar, so that I could more easily translate it all (to get better verbal flow of a game).

There are of course several other things i could go on and complain about, but my point is that i begin to believe that ive missed something, that its ME that is all wrong, and not d20, 'course everyone else i know thinks otherwise.

So i ask you experienced roleplayers if you can pinpoint the strengths of d20, comparing to other systems? (please use DnD in particular, since i have my own experience limited to this) I think d20 mechanics does roleplaying a "bear favor", as it is called in norwegian, that is; a favor thats doing the opposite of helping, that d20 is getting in the way of DnD being a good roleplaying game. At what turn did i go wrong?

Ive considered using the FUDGE mechanics to make a better system for my group, but first i need to test my arguments.

D20 System is as big as it is not because it's awesome, but because of the D20STL and D20SRD, and ecause it's the system used in D&D. It could be awesome, but that's not why it's so popular. IMHO, it is merely sufficient--there's not that much wrong with it, so it doesn't matter if there's much that is awesome about it.

In short, no i can't pinpoint the strengths, or, rather, those strengths aren't in the mechanics themselves. It's not better than the competition, though it might not be worse than the competition, either (depending on what you're comparing to)--it's merely good enough.

Also, after looking around, i'd say that D&D3E, D&D3.5E, and D20 Modern are fairly poor implementations of D20 System. Spycraft, Call of Cthulhu D20, Traveller D20, Mutants & Masterminds, and BESM D20 are all far superior instantiations of the underlying D20 System elements. Great stuff can be done with D20 System--D&D isn't an example of this.

 

[woodelf]

I agree totally here. D20 is less rules heavy than GURPS, Hero, FASA, Coda (Yes I know Coda is art- greatest system ever- I ackowledge its utter greatness).

So Im not sure what you mean by rules heavy.

Not sure what you mean by "FASA" as a system--they've published quite a few different games--and i'd contest the claim that D&D3E is any simpler than Coda--i'd say they're equivalent.

But GURPS and Hero System are generally agreed to be two of the more-complex RPGs ever, with only the likes of Aftermath being in a more-complex category. I'd say that D&D3E is empirically on the "rules heavy" side of the midpoint, at the very least--come on, this is a game with roughly 800pp of rules (when condensed to 9/8pt type--i just finished formatting a beautiful version of the 3.5 SRD, which is pretty much all rules, no flavor text). Or, put another way, the combat chapter in D&d3E is 36pp, and that does'nt even include all the rules in the magic and skills chapters, not to mention the bits scattered all over the classes, feats, and other chapters. GURPS basic combat does pretty much everything D&D3E combat does, in 6pp (plus another 5 for healing). Even the advanced combat, which gives you a *lot* more bang for your buck, only takes another 25pp. Tri-Stat dX manages as much combat detail as D&D3E, and maybe a few more options, in ~11pp. And *all* the rules in Over the Edge, including character creation and copious examples, can fit in 2 pages of reasonable-size type.

The line between "rules light" and "rules heavy" is fuzzy and much-debated. But D&D3E is nowhere near it--it's clearly on the "heavy" side. "Light" games are represented by such fare as Over the Edge, the Window, Story Engine, maybe original D&D, simple Fudge, Everway, Amber DRP. Things like some versions of Storyteller probably sit near the midpoint. Not D&D3E.

 

[woodelf]

d20 and DnD are a simple system. I can tell a novice gamer that you roll a d20, add your "skill" and try to get a large number. A player does not realy need to know how the skill modifier is computed. Of course the more the player knows about the different stats and skills, the better they can intuit the limits of their character, but they always know, roll high

Character creation is no worse then most modern RPGs. And it is detailed enought that you can be creative.

I disagree. D&D3E chargen is more of a bear than most RPGs of similar complexity Though it's due to the poor writing/organization of the PH, as much as or more than the underlying rules.

Anyway, by your standard, even Hero System is a simple system. Good luck convincing people of that.

 

[woodelf]

Look again, and note The Golden Rule. It's in every Storyteller book.

And the number of RPGs published in the last 15yrs that *don't* have some variation on that rule in them?

The point is, the mechanics of Storyteller are pretty much the same as those in D20 System--they're all about what the character is capable of. This is in contrast with the mechanics in, say, Donjon, which are all about narrative control. Now, i think it'd be reasonable to argue that Storyteller does a better job of promoting RPing, due to the personality mechanics in the various games--but that is yet another separate goal from storytelling.

 

[woodelf]

Also, compared to what systems does d20 have more rules? Certainly not GURPS, for instance.

RPGs with fewer/less-complex rules than D&D3E:
Chill
Kult
The End
Call of Cthulhu
Lost Souls
AD&D2 (core books only)
Asylum
The Power
Heaven & Earth
Underground
Over the Edge
Witchcraft
Toon
Pandemonium
Ghostbusters
Star Frontiers
The Babylon Project
Star Wars (D6)
Noir
Talislanta 4th
Everway
Story Engine
Nobilis
Hero Wars
Trollbabe
Sorcerer
Archmage
Hercules & Xena
Tri-Stat dX
the new Marvel RPG
Fudge
CORPS
Sol
Epiphany
Orkworld
Amber DRP
Advanced Marvel Super Heroes

And those are just the ones i immediately thought of, or can see on my shelf from here and know have simpler/shorter rules. There's another list at least as long of RPGs on my shelves that definitely have shorter rules (raw pagecount/wordcount) but i'm not sure they're simpler, or have considerably simpler rules but i'm not sure they're actually any shorter. And another list about that long of games that are probably simpler and shorter than D&D3E, but they're close enough that i'd have to get them out and really compare closely.

Games that are more complex/detailed or longer than D&D3E:
Hero System 5th
GURPS
arguably Rolemaster
Aria
Aftermath

um...that's about it.

 

[woodelf]

Storm Gorn, I recommend you try any one of White Wolf's Storyteller games. They place less emphasis on rules, and more emphasis on story and character development.

I think the d20 system involves quite a few rules. In the full RPG spectrum, I'd call it "rules medium," as opposed to rules-light Storyteller games and rules-heavy Rolemaster games, just to give a few examples.

Disagree--Storyteller is only a bit better, mechanically. It's in how they tell ou to use the rules that they're a much more narrative slant--so people who play Storyteller games are probably more inclined to throw the rules out than those who play D&D3E. But if you actually play them by the book, with all the complications, they're almost as complex as D&D3E--just a bit less detail in combat, and a bit more everywhere else. They *do* tend to be more flexible, however. Anway, if you put Storyteller on the "rules light" end of the spectrum, i can see why you'd think D20 System is in the middle. I'd say, given exposure to more RPGs you'd probably end up moving the midpoint more over to somewhere a bit on the simple side of Storyteller. D20 System is, IMHO, firmly on the heavy side of the midpoint.

 

[Desdichado]

Games that are more complex/detailed or longer than D&D3E:
Hero System 5th
GURPS
arguably Rolemaster
Aria
Aftermath

um...that's about it.

Wrong! The original quote, and the one I made that you responded to, said d20, not D&D. d20 is not a three book, 960 page mass of rules. d20 fits neatly along with the setting in one book in the case of Star Wars, Wheel of Time, Call of Cthulhu and (sorta) d20 Modern. d20 is not empirically more complex than lots of other games, in fact, I've seen few (at least that had any kind of mass appeal or distribution) that were really any less complex at the end of the day.

Now, a question (probably for another thread) is why is it that D&D has so many rules if d20 Star Wars, Call of Cthulhu, Modern and Wheel of Time can make do with the same system in much less space?