D&D 4E Rich Baker on Gnomes in 4E

[Mistwell]

Well, just ask yourself what class or race is your favorite to play, and then ask yourself how you would feel and react if that class or race was removed/backshelved in 4e.

"Gnomes will likely get a "full" PC race writeup in 2009". Not removed. Not backshelved.

 

[Aeolius]

And in there mind the gnome race isn't something that really needs to be addressed until 2009.

And they might win some players back, by that point. When 4e has the equivalent to Stormwrack, Savage Species, and the Greyhawk Gazetteer, it will be a lot more attractive to me. (edit: and cross-platform tools for the D&D Insider applications)

WotC knows that an undersea supplement is wanted. They even joked about it on another thread: "...the first MM after we have robust aquatic rules (DMG2 maybe? No promises!)". Hopefully the 4e environmental books (this time with a jungle supplement, please) will arrive sooner rather than later.

 

[Maggan]

Technically, with 4e WotC is demanding that everyone abandon their personal campaigns and begin anew.

I'd say that "demanding" is not the right word at all. I'd chose "suggesting" since it better fits what they are saying. If any gamer or game company started "demanding" that I change my campaign to fit a game not released yet, I'd ... shrug my shoulders and laugh at the very idea.

But I'm fine with them suggesting how to use the rules, since I still get to make the final decision on what goes at my table.

/M

 

[KRT]

marginal races

I don't think Gnomes are a "marginal" race. I think they lacked a uniqueness of character that would make them different to play than something like a dwarf or halfling would give you. They also seemed slated to fill only the slot of comic releaf in the party and were only viable in parties that had the core bases well covered. They are however, despite this, much better than the dragonblooded. When presented with the dragonblooded and any other 3 races (including gnomes) even a 4 year old knows which one doesn't belong. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I prefer a campaign that has a set of races a bit more believable than what a 13 year old would come up with. Let's face it the dragonblooded were created only for one reason, so players could have an even more powered up PC than in previous versions of the game. If this race did in fact exist in the fantasy setting, a lot more than just gnomes would have ceased to exist. Either that or every race would end up being dragonblooded. Gnomes may be labelled a marginal race but dragonblooded are clearly a race for marginal role playing.

 

[Pbartender]

I don't think Gnomes are a "marginal" race. I think they lacked a uniqueness of character that would make them different to play than something like a dwarf or halfling would give you.

Or rather, Gnomes are a "marginal" race, because they lacked a uniqueness of character that would make them different to play than something like a dwarf or halfling would give you.

To make an anecdotal point, in all the years I've been playing since gnomes first made their appearance as a playabvle race in D&D, the number of gnome PCs and NPCs that I, my fellow players or my DMs have played are in the single digits. In the games I've played, gnomes have always been the least played of the core races, and many MM and splat book races get more play than them.

But that's just me. Honestly, I'm more bummed about seeing the loss of a playable brutish goblinoid race from the PHB -- half-orcs, than I am about losing gnomes.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

For lovers and users of gnomes, sure it is.

But yes, I think the misunderstanding (deliberate or otherwise) is kind of absurd. Rich Baker is not, AFAICT, calling gnomes marginal in this post. To get offended at this is to already be offended.

Gnomes aren't in the PH1. Nothing, at this point, will ever change that fact. Yes, for some people that's a big deal, and they have every right to complain about it, but said complaining won't get much done. WotC already has their minds made up: gnomes aren't in. There's not a whole lot to be gained from getting offended by that at this point. What might be smarter is to try and be one of the first people to post an "old school gnomes" write-up to Gleemax or your own personal website. It's a problem WotC isn't going to fix for a while. It's up to you to do it.

Wouldn't posting it on Gleemax mean that WotC owns it? It would probably be smarter to put it on these boards instead, in House Rules.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I respectfully disagree. While some of the gnomes racial abilities seemed arbitrary, such as the attack bonus against kobolds, I think the race has plenty of flavor and definition. To me, elves seem just as arbitrary. Sense secret doors? What kind of racial ability is that? In many ways, elves are simply better-than-humans. That's how tolkein created them. They're fairer, more graceful, wiser, longer lived, more magical, etc etc etc. Oh, and they have pointy ears.

Gnomes have always seemed to me as alot more than just "another small race." If anything, I see halflings as the race that just doesn't seem to belong. They're just small humans. First they're hobits, then they're mini gypsies, now they're riverboaters. If any race is struggling to find an identity, it's the halflings.

Gnomes, on the other hand, are an iconic fantasy race. They are closely tied to fey, much as, if not moreso, than elves. They are curious, inventive and clever. Their mastery of illusions stems not only from their fey heritage and magical talent, but also from their ingenuity and imagination. Gnomes are the classical elves or fairies. Mischievious, mystical, and elusive. They make up for their small size and physical weakness with cunning and magic.

I just don't see why people think they aren't well defined. They just needed a little polish, that's all. In World of Warcraft, they are a very popular race. I think alot of a race's popularity has to do with how they are presented.

QFT. It's fashionable right now to slag gnomes for no good reason. The only halfling racial trait is "we're short". Gnomes have a ton of rich character ready for development, and a connection to historical fantasy. Just ask Whizbang Dustyboots how deep they can be.

 

[Mistwell]

And they might win some players back, by that point. When 4e has the equivalent to Stormwrack, Savage Species, and the Greyhawk Gazetteer, it will be a lot more attractive to me. (edit: and cross-platform tools for the D&D Insider applications)

WotC knows that an undersea supplement is wanted. They even joked about it on another thread: "...the first MM after we have robust aquatic rules (DMG2 maybe? No promises!)". Hopefully the 4e environmental books (this time with a jungle supplement, please) will arrive sooner rather than later.

It's only next year! We are not talking long down the road when environmental books come out, we are talking some of the first round of supplement books!

 

[Mistwell]

I don't think Gnomes are a "marginal" race. I think they lacked a uniqueness of character that would make them different to play than something like a dwarf or halfling would give you. They also seemed slated to fill only the slot of comic releaf in the party and were only viable in parties that had the core bases well covered. They are however, despite this, much better than the dragonblooded. When presented with the dragonblooded and any other 3 races (including gnomes) even a 4 year old knows which one doesn't belong. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I prefer a campaign that has a set of races a bit more believable than what a 13 year old would come up with. Let's face it the dragonblooded were created only for one reason, so players could have an even more powered up PC than in previous versions of the game. If this race did in fact exist in the fantasy setting, a lot more than just gnomes would have ceased to exist. Either that or every race would end up being dragonblooded. Gnomes may be labelled a marginal race but dragonblooded are clearly a race for marginal role playing.

I disagree wholeheartedly. The write-ups for Dragonborn we have seen so far made them look, in my opinion, like a well thought out and interesting race. Far better thought out and interesting than probably about half the races in the current game. And in the thread where we discussed that write-up, a lot of folks agreed.

 

[Darrius Adler]

I can see why gnomes got the boot out of the PHB. I can honestly say that in 14 years of playing D&D I have never played one and only one person in my group played a gnome for a one shot adventure. Then I found Eberron and read about the Zilargo gnomes. I have wanted to play one ever since (just have not had the opportunity) in that setting. I just hope there is enough in the MM to be able to make a gnome and then I can expand on it as needed in the theme of the Zil gnomes.