D&D 4E Rich Baker on his 4e Warlord

[Rechan]

Perhaps rather than trying to buy a 4e character with 28 points, the default needs to be higher now.

The default really isn't important. It's what DMs decide to run their campaign by.

Besides, didn't a poster earlier say that the "default assumption" is 25 point buy for 3.5?

 

[Rechan]

What classes exist in 3.5 where that actually happens?

I know that technically you could roll 18, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, and then you'd have class abilities that you couldn't use. But, trying to be reasonable, can you list a class where this occurs?

Paladin? Monk? I don't understand the question.

And just to keep things on a level footing, lets ignore multiclass characters. If you're playing a Monk/Shadowcaster, you get what you deserve when you can't get sufficient bonuses in all six stats.

I don't see how you can say that the monk Doesn't have this problem. That your monk/shadowdancer isn't going to be gimped.

A score of 12 gives a bonus in an ability. Not getting the maximum possible bonus doesn't mean that you are missing a class ability, it just means you have it to a lesser degree. I can't think of any class abilities off-hand where a score of 12 would mean that you missed out on it completely. Maybe you can?

Getting a single +1 from a class feature that is there for balance is not in my opinion Good Enough to be there in the first place, when that ability is sitting there on your sheet taunting you by saying "Hey I'm here for balance, but haha you don't get much mileage out of me." Being forced to spread out like that doesn't make you really "good" at anything.

It gets even more disgusting with the monk because you just can't put 12s or 14s across the board. They need specialization of their stats just to be useful, and then they have a huge gaping hole.

 

[Anthtriel]

Note how the use of the 4E level adjusted stat boni would effectively mitigate MAD.
I'll freely admit that when I play a Paladin and don't have Wis 14 and Cha 14+, I feel I'm missing out on my class abilites. It's just an unpleasant feeling.
Part of the problem is that stat boni are just so tiny. Anything below +2 feels worthless. Even worse when the amount of times you can use an ability is limited by stat bonus.
Adding half your character level to the bonus means a lot of rebalancing, but it also makes characters less stat dependant, especially in perception and therefore reduces MAD.

 

[Cadfan]

Paladin? Monk? I don't understand the question.

The question was, what 3.5 character classes have genuine difficulty using their class abilities due to MAD?

Paladin is one on which I definitely disagree with you. I'd play a Paladin in a 25 point buy build in a heartbeat. I'd put together a fighter with 25 point buy as 16, 11, 14, 10, 10, 10. I'd put together the Paladin as 14, 10, 14, 10, 13, 12.

I know that both characters could be running 8s in some stats, but the fighter's advantage in running 8s is not all that great, and I personally prefer not to do it.

Look at the two characters. The fighter has +1 attack and damage. That's it.

You have to remember that in the world of the 25 point buy, a 16 is a WOAH THAT'S HIGH stat, a 14 is pretty darn nice, and a 12 is a standard favored stat.

I personally play at 32 point buy. I can't think of any class in the entire game that doesn't function well at 32. Not that this helps people who don't play at 32, or people who's expectations involve 16s and 18s, so take it for what its worth.

I almost agree with you on the monk at 25 point buy. I think that the monk's problem is less a function of MAD than a function of weak class design, which players "fix" by only running monks with very high stats. The monk can use all of its class abilities quite easily. Its problem is just that Flurry of Blows is a melee brawler's ability, but the monk is a skirmisher in most of its other class features.

Getting a single +1 from a class feature that is there for balance is not in my opinion Good Enough to be there in the first place, when that ability is sitting there on your sheet taunting you by saying "Hey I'm here for balance, but haha you don't get much mileage out of me."

That's a different position. I guess I just don't feel all that cheated when I don't get at least a +2 from a class feature. And at least in 3.5, that usually goes up as you get past a certain point in the game and start buying stat boosters. I don't know how this will work in 4e of course.

 

[JohnSnow]

WARNING!!! OVERLY ANALYTICAL SPECULATION ABOUT TO RUSH OFF A CLIFF!!!

He has stats like this:

20, 14, 8, 17, 10, 14

I'm gonna see what I can come up with with some legit speculation. In SWSE, characters get to boost 2 stats every 4 levels. You can only bump one stat at a time. That would mean it's likely he had an 18 in STR and has put one bump at each point into that stat. In addition, he either increased two of his other stats by 1 each or one of them by 2. Possible starting numbers...

18, 13, 8, 16, 10, 14

18, 14, 8, 15, 10, 14

Hmm...neither is terribly attractive or clean. Let's look at another option from a game Mike Mearls designed - Iron Heroes. In that game, all your stats start at 10. You get 24 points to spend on stat increases. Increasing costs one point to raise a skill to 15, and 2 points for each point after that. You can also make an ability a weakness by dropping it to 8 (and gaining 2 points). Some default arrays using that system:

Option A) 16, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10
Option B) 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8*

To get from B to Rich's stats, we need to assign them thusly:

Starting: Str 18 (+2), Con 12 (+2), Dex 8, Int 16 (+1), Wis 10, Cha 14
Gives: Str 20, Con 14, Dex 8, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 14

Five 1 point stat raises maps nicely to 1 every even level. That might even work with a D&D point-buy. Backing up again..

Str 20, Con 14, Dex 8, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 14

What if humans get a racial bonus of +2 to one stat? Let's assume he's put that into strength...

He could have started with:

Str 16, Con 13, Dex 8, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 14

He's gotten +2 to Str as a racial ability, & also boosted it twice. He's also boosted INT twice and Con once. That maps to a stat raise every even level, similar to SWSE in principle but giving it to you along the way.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that:

a) humans get a racial bonus to a stat,
b) the starting numbers have changed,
c) a and b, but not quite as radically.

 

[WhatGravitas]

You have to remember that in the world of the 25 point buy, a 16 is a WOAH THAT'S HIGH stat, a 14 is pretty darn nice, and a 12 is a standard favored stat.

The problem is being used to higher stats. Random rolls usually give you something better than 25-pt. - if you roll lower, it's often MUCH lower, and hence unplayable ( to elaborate: You roll and get a 21 pt., 24 pt., 27 pt. and 28 pt., then the 21 pt. one will be probably hardly playable - hence we see 24 pt, 27 pt. and 28 pt. which gives us an average of ~ 26, therefore, 25 pt. looks sub-par for us), hence we tend to remember the 25+ pt. rolls - and use them. And with random roll, getting a 17 with a 15 isn't that uncommon...

And that's why my group likes random rolls - standard point buy characters look too weak from their point of view.

And we are used to higher stats, because they tend to be more memorable.

Cheers, LT.

 

[occam]

Wizard abilities, but no wizard levels. Hmmm.

Perhaps multiclassing is achieved through some sort of talent tree rather than actual character levels? I'm thinking along the lines of at some levels buying some of the second classes' abilities/spells instead of buying a power available to your core class.

So instead of buying wizard levels, Karhun bought some wizard feats/talents/whatever-they're-called-now instead of warlord ones at some levels.

I've been suspecting something like this for a while now; in fact, from when they talked about prestige classes working differently shortly after the launch (the specific example being frenzied berserker). I think they'll work the same way: a PrC will probably just be an alternate list of powers to choose.

I think racial powers may also work the same way, given that they've said race can matter into high levels (at least for PHB races), but won't throw off the power curve, and that some MM monsters can be playable races even without the detailed power progression.

IOW, multiclassing, PrCs, and races (and maybe even magic items, in some similar way) increase the options available to a character, but not raw power.

 

[Li Shenron]

The bit about multiclassing is interesting.

Indeed! This one was a helluva teaser!

 

[occam]

What bugs me with the warlord is its healing ability. Seems really NOT logical. And I fail to see which kind of fantasy archertype it fills. Aragorn the healer ? But D&D healing is "insta-magic" and it looks like 4e will be even worse (immediate action, so you don't "waste" your time healing someone).

Flavor-wise, I think this'll work like a lot of the Devoted Spirit maneuvers and related feats from Bo9S. It's dependent on interpreting hit points as being affected by morale, physical and mental exhaustion, etc., and not just meatiness. Although hit points have been explained that way at least back to 1e, the concept has never stuck that well with most people, I think, so they'll have to do a better job of making that clear in 4e than has been done in any edition to date so that such effects don't seem as goofy as you fear they will.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

The question was, what 3.5 character classes have genuine difficulty using their class abilities due to MAD?

Paladin is one on which I definitely disagree with you. I'd play a Paladin in a 25 point buy build in a heartbeat. I'd put together a fighter with 25 point buy as 16, 11, 14, 10, 10, 10. I'd put together the Paladin as 14, 10, 14, 10, 13, 12.

I know that both characters could be running 8s in some stats, but the fighter's advantage in running 8s is not all that great, and I personally prefer not to do it.

Look at the two characters. The fighter has +1 attack and damage. That's it.

You have to remember that in the world of the 25 point buy, a 16 is a WOAH THAT'S HIGH stat, a 14 is pretty darn nice, and a 12 is a standard favored stat.

*snip*

I almost agree with you on the monk at 25 point buy. I think that the monk's problem is less a function of MAD than a function of weak class design, which players "fix" by only running monks with very high stats. The monk can use all of its class abilities quite easily. Its problem is just that Flurry of Blows is a melee brawler's ability, but the monk is a skirmisher in most of its other class features.

I played a 25 point buy monk for 11 levels once. Everyone else had 25 points too. I was pretty good. I can't remember his stats, but I remember it occurring to me that I could kind of dump Dex in favour of Wis, since they both contribute to AC, but Wis also powers my abilities. I could maximize the gain by taking a good Wis and okay Dex, because after 14, you start to see diminishing returns on any given score, so it's not worth it to throw more points on Wis when you can start into Dex instead.

I ran mostly on Str, Wis, Con, and Dex, in that order, and the actual stats started out looking like your paladin, above. Certainly, I could have used more points, but it really wasn't a terrible character, in the context of other 25-point characters. A bit on the weak side, sure, but not abysmal.