Richard Baker on Orcus and Deity Slaying

[dm4hire]

I read his descriptions of Orcus the same; a top level enemy, a campaign ender, but not the monster of room #2 in a level 28 dungeon.

Ah!! Come on, why can't Orcus hang out in the coat room?

Orcus: Welcome to Chateux de'Dungeon. May I take your coats please?

Ranger: Why thank you, mighty nice place you have here. You don't mind if we ransack the place do you?

Orcus: No, no, go right ahead. The first mob is waiting for you just inside to the right.

Rogue: Here you go, now where's the nearest gold pile? Oh, shiny wand.

Paladin: (To cleric) Something about this coat checker I just don't like.

Cleric: Well they gave this dungeon five stars in Explorer Monthly. Sure it isn't that pit fiend you killed yesterday coming back on you?

Orcus: Here's your tickets, you can claim everything on the way out if you live, I mean when you return.

 

[Iron Sky]

I'm curious about anyone's current/past Epic-level 3/3.5 games. When characters get up to levels 25-30+, what do they usually do? I've only skimmed the Epic level handbook since I find regular old high-level 3.x annoying enough that Epic is a total turn off, so what do they fight? The Tarasque's big brothers? I would think eventually WotC would run out of non-godlings for them to kill and put some of them in there.

I'd think at some point with the amount of power Epic level characters in 3.x have, they be bound to terminally piss off some god or another and be so powerful that the god has to "do it himself" - thus necessitating the DMs have/create god stats unless they want to end the players by DM fiat:

DM: "A god shows up, throws a globe of pure energy at you, and you die."
Player: "What? Which god?"
DM: "You can't tell 'cause you're dead."
Player: "Was that a ranged attack or something?"
DM: "Sure, I'll roll it... ok, that's a 2 so he hits touch AC one thousand."
Player: "Do I get a save?"
DM: "Sure, roll it."
Player: "Which one?"
DM: "Reflex I guess."
Player: "Sweet, I have +40 in Reflex... natural twenty!"
DM: "You die."

 

[The Little Raven]

(It's also a totally kick-ass supplement. Worst thing about M:TG? It meant the rest of the series would never happen...)

I thought it was the Palladium lawsuit and WotC's inability to really make any substantial profit off the RPGs at that time that led to TPO's demise. Almost every historical account I've read of the time suggests that trying to get into RPGs was killing WotC and M:TG actually saved it from going under.

 

[Gort]

DM: "A god shows up, throws a globe of pure energy at you, and you die."
Player: "What? Which god?"
DM: "You can't tell 'cause you're dead."
Player: "Was that a ranged attack or something?"
DM: "Sure, I'll roll it... ok, that's a 2 so he hits touch AC one thousand."
Player: "Do I get a save?"
DM: "Sure, roll it."
Player: "Which one?"
DM: "Reflex I guess."
Player: "Sweet, I have +40 in Reflex... natural twenty!"
DM: "You die."

Ranged touch attack AND a save? This god has some rubbish spells!

 

[hong]

Still, I do stand by the fact that none of the previous versions of the rules really encouraged players to kill gods in such a core way as Rich Baker seems to be suggesting now.

What a very strange interpretation you have.

 

[robertliguori]

Hmm. My personal preference is for any entity that earns the monkier God to be both unable to be affected by and unable to directly influence the world at large. There can be a gods of whatever you want there to be gods for, and they can have actual personality, desire, motivation, and action, but they should not be physical entities. Make 'em setting mechanics. Say, the god of war offers a boon to characters with a BAB above 6 when they perform a certain ritual on the eve of battle, but he can't actually show up and smite people with his sword, nor be smote in turn.

Now, you can include actual foci for worship, belief, and religion, that can range from nonmagical idols to Solar Exalted, but if stabbing is a way that this entity can interact with the world, I'd prefer not to call it a god.

 

[Imban]

FR deities were killable, but only if the killing blow came from annother deity or the aid of annother deity. Not even during the times of troubles did a deity die by the pure hand of a mortal without divine aid. In 3e the F&P web enhancement re-introduced the immortality vs. mortals rule.

In the FR we have:

Borem -> not really slain but more knocked out and even this with secret aid of Jergal
Mystryl -> chose suicid to end Karsus's spell prematurely. Could have waited until the normal end and have been none the worse for wear
Moander -> slain with the help of Tymora
Myrkul -> slain at a point when Midnight was already filled with the energies of Mystra
Bhaal -> slain with Mask
Selvetarm -> most likely slain by either Elistrae or Lolth at the sava table
Kiaranshalee -> most likely slain by Lolth at the sava table

In the (terrible) Time of Troubles modules, you bumped off Bane (and, uh, Torm technically) yourself using an artifact. Theoretically Torm was helping you fight Bane, but only in an abstract "the gods are fighting outside our city!" way before you fried both of them with an artifact. That's the last battle of Tantras.

Meanwhile, in Waterdeep, you can theoretically bump off Bhaal yourself if you really work to derail the plot. The book certainly attempts to railroad you away from doing it, but leaves the possibility there.

Myrkul, as you stated, gets fried by Midnight using Super God NPC Powers regardless of anything the players try to do.

 

[Lizard]

I thought it was the Palladium lawsuit and WotC's inability to really make any substantial profit off the RPGs at that time that led to TPO's demise. Almost every historical account I've read of the time suggests that trying to get into RPGs was killing WotC and M:TG actually saved it from going under.

My memory is that the Palladium lawsuit was settled and the books were re-issued with minor changes. I have not head WOTC was doing worse than any other small press company of the time, but given the chance to make millions with M:TG or thousands with TPO, well, they made the only sane choice. No MTG, they probably would have published a few more books and gently faded off like most small gaming companies do, possibly still being run from Peter Adkison's basement like R. Talsorian. Of course, it's also possible that without WOTC, D&D would have died in the late 1990s, and the bulk of the hobby with it.

 

[AZRogue]

If people don't want to kill Gods then I think that's perfectly fine. However, as the "big bang" at the end of an Epic adventure, I would like the option available. It's much easier for the game to include some stats to typical extreme beings for those who want the option than to not do so and leave us to figure it out for ourselves.

It's easier to not use available material than to leave DMs to make it up. And there's a long history, as far as I'm concerned, of having Gods be killable. 2E changed that, to a large degree, and the system was worse for it, IMO. People who started playing around that time would naturally be against it as it's unfamiliar, but it's definitely an option that should be available for those interested in adding some real "Epic" to their epic campaigns.

 

[VannATLC]

Hmm. My personal preference is for any entity that earns the monkier God to be both unable to be affected by and unable to directly influence the world at large. There can be a gods of whatever you want there to be gods for, and they can have actual personality, desire, motivation, and action, but they should not be physical entities. Make 'em setting mechanics. Say, the god of war offers a boon to characters with a BAB above 6 when they perform a certain ritual on the eve of battle, but he can't actually show up and smite people with his sword, nor be smote in turn.

Now, you can include actual foci for worship, belief, and religion, that can range from nonmagical idols to Solar Exalted, but if stabbing is a way that this entity can interact with the world, I'd prefer not to call it a god.

Well, I can understand why you think that way, and, ultimately, all of the classical polythiest religions had something that approached 'creator' over 'God'.

The Gods of DND are God's in the original sense of the word, not the monothiestastic christian version, that translates God to 'creator'.