Rings of Power -- all opinions and spoilers welcome thread.

[Ryujin]

This is where I disagree with you. In the movies we get the sense of wisdom and power from Gildor, Galadriel and Elrond, and we get the sense of their tragedy. They don't have to explain why those things are to capture the essence of what Tolkien's elves were. We get none of that essence in the TV show.

I'm not saying the movies were perfect, but it did do a much better job with the elves than the show.

Sure, except that this show covers how they got there.

 

[Maxperson]

The disconnect of the ageless immortals

Okay. One thing between Elrond and Durin, but that disconnect was in LotR as well, so LotR is still waaaaaay up on the Tolkien elf-o-meter.

and Humand and Dwarf perspectives

Those aren't elves and I've already said that the show did dwarves well. As for human perspectives, the show failed miserably. It shows humans, but not due to anything resembling Tolkien. The low humans in the show could have been the humans in Wheel of Time, Game of Thrones or any other generic show. The Numenoreans are about as far from the High Men that they were as you can get. They're basically low men with good architecture.

the arrogance rooted in sctusl tremendous skill.

What tremendous skill? Galadriel is good at fighting, but fails as the powerful(fighting ability wasn't elven power) and wise elf that she was. The other elf we see a lot of was good with a bow, but wasn't particularly powerful or skillful at all. We get a hint of elven arrogance, but not in the Tolkien way. Anyone can just be arrogant, regardless of race.

Srondir and Galadreil were both excellent examples of Elves.

Sure, but just not Tolkien elves.

 

[Maxperson]

Sure, except that this show covers how they got there.

It doesn't. Galadriel was there prior to going to Middle Earth. She was among the most powerful and wise of elves before leaving Aman, and was not warlike at all. Elrond isn't shown in this show gathering the wisdom he shows in LotR. He's shown already wise and with friendship to Durin. Gildor isn't there at all.

 

[Ryujin]

No. The elves in the show felt weak(other than Galadriel) and incompetent. "I'm Celebrimbor, best elven smith since Feanor, yet I can't even figure out that maybe a mithril alloy might work without the help of a human who is like 30 years old. And despite my age and wisdom, I'm not going to question that this 30 year old human knows more of smithing than a several thousand year old great elven smith. And neither are any other ancient and wise elves."

I thought that was handled rather well. "Halbrand" never seemed to give the exact answer that Celebrimbor needed. He commented on something adjacent that led Celebrimbor to make a conclusion, that would seem like he came up with the idea himself.

 

[Ryujin]

It doesn't. Galadriel was there prior to going to Middle Earth. She was among the most powerful and wise of elves before leaving Aman, and was not warlike at all. Elrond isn't shown in this show gathering the wisdom he shows in LotR. He's shown already wise and with friendship to Durin. Gildor isn't there at all.

The simple question here is, "In what source?"

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Well, if you can elucidate why, it may be interesting. The potential for the very good English writing not translating necessarily well is interesting.

Can't speak for all translations of course, but there have been very good translations of Tolkien in French in the 70s, and recently (2012) another one that sparked a controversy because it changed things, some (IMHO) for the better, other from the worse and of course changing edition sparks wars, as we know But despite a few glaring problems, the classical translation was made a great professional and reflected a high level of writing faithfully, including maybe some archaisms of style and grammar that would very well fit the themes.

On the other hand, the show is translated... probably by the same companies that translate any shows. Sometimes it's... flat to awkward. Sometimes there is a strong feeling that the translator kept close to the English wording (or vocabulary). When Adar is asking the Southerners to "swear fealty" to him, I am pretty sure he said swear fealty in the original because well, the translator used words that sounds a word-for-word translation instead of using a more proper translation. So, the line between having some characters speaking in an old-fashioned way (which is appropriate, my grandmother doesn't speak the same language as I do, so I expect a 3,000 years old person to be even more set in their ways) thus evoking the right feeling, and the wording being just odd is often crossed.

[I am not disparaging any translation... In Locke & Key, I had to switch to the original to check if the people from the Washington era were speaking differently from the 21st century youngsters that stars the show, because they felt speaking like very classical French in the translation, and bingo! They had English accent in the original while everyone else was speaking American) so sometimes translators do it right. Here it's... not that good, but I can't say if it is the original material or the translation].

I could probably watch the show in the original language and get most of the dialogue, but I don't claim fluency in English: I still prefer to hear it in French since Amazon is offering the choice.

Edit: there is also a strong possibility that my vision of the songs is colored by the translation: poetry is awfully difficult to translate well.

 

[Maxperson]

I thought that was handled rather well. "Halbrand" never seemed to give the exact answer that Celebrimbor needed. He commented on something adjacent that led Celebrimbor to make a conclusion, that would seem like he came up with the idea himself.

"Have you tried combining it with other ores to better stretch it out?" is not leading Celebrimbor to make a conclusion. It's flat out giving him the solution to alloy mithril. It's basically, "Hey stupid, you need to alloy this metal to make it work," which isn't something a legendary elven smith would have needed to be told or even suggested to do. He'd have done it by himself long before Sauron arrived.

 

[Maxperson]

The simple question here is, "In what source?"

Silmarillion, LotR, and Unfinished Tales of Middle Earth. In the Silmarillion it's established in Aman that she is among the most powerful and wisest of her kind, and that she is against everything Feanor and her brothers stand for. She goes to Middle Earth to establish a kingdom to rule, not to engage in war and battle, tracking down Sauron with battle lust and fury.

 

[Parmandur]

"Have you tried combining it with other ores to better stretch it out?" is not leading Celebrimbor to make a conclusion. It's flat out giving him the solution to alloy mithril. It's basically, "Hey stupid, you need to alloy this metal to make it work," which isn't something a legendary elven smith would have needed to be told or even suggested to do. He'd have done it by himself long before Sauron arrived.

That was just the hook: we know b2cauwe of what Vel rimbor said later.

 

[Ryujin]

"Have you tried combining it with other ores to better stretch it out?" is not leading Celebrimbor to make a conclusion. It's flat out giving him the solution to alloy mithril. It's basically, "Hey stupid, you need to alloy this metal to make it work," which isn't something a legendary elven smith would have needed to be told or even suggested to do. He'd have done it by himself long before Sauron arrived.

"Combining it with other ores to stretch it out" isn't "alloy it with another metal to make it work." He planted a seed, rather than giving the solution.

Silmarillion, LotR, and Unfinished Tales of Middle Earth. In the Silmarillion it's established in Aman that she is among the most powerful and wisest of her kind, and that she is against everything Feanor and her brothers stand for. She goes to Middle Earth to establish a kingdom to rule, not to engage in war and battle, tracking down Sauron with battle lust and fury.

OK, the first and third are immediately off the table. The second may or may not contain sufficient information to make the conclusions that you have made. My memory says no, though it's been a while.