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D&D 5E RIP alignment

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1) Alignment first. Always. That tool is as important for me as the stat block. But nice analogies you got there. After so many years, it is easy to forget that the need for foes precedes their society. D&D has its roots in wargames afterall.

Interesting. I think I'm the reverse, where I try to make my cultures first and (when I was using it) I'd apply some sort of alignment. One of the few reverses of that was making up Elvish culture, because I took their weird alignment/lore disconnect as a challenge.

2) not for me
It is not weird but natural. Alignment foe society does not mean that everyone in that society believe that it is the only way. But it represent how the vast majority of that society behave, strive for and idealize. It could also be an absolute or not. It all depends on the DM.

Sure, but I'm talking about more of defining a society as an alignment, like how you did with the merchant republic. Like, I agree with what you did, but I think it gets really weird because defining something as "Chaotic" can be a bit difficult since I find societies are based around rules, making them inherently "Lawful" at some level. Plus it's pretty easy to apply the "Neutral" or "Evil" parts to a government, but I'm always hesitant to apply "Good".

They made a shift in race definition, but removing alignment is more than needed for now.
Humanoid and culture will be describe with a wider spectrum in future products and thus alignment will still be needed. We will see more sample for orc, drow, gnome, and they will simply avoid to cornered them in a single behavior. In fact it will make better products.

I wish everyone was as positive with such a change. We can disagree, but I really wish people looked at this as an opportunity.

WHo said anything about law abiding cogs in their society? I called out EVIL. Drow society is undoubtedly evil. Dark Elves who come from Drow Society do not have to be Evil just like a random German or even German military personnel during WWII have to be evil. Don't confuse the society and culture for the individual. What makes Drow society worse is that those who aren't evil turn a blind eye or they leave because... Drow society is THAT evil and oppressive.

I think it's more that Drow society comes off as very Lawful because it is so structured, but all Drow have Chaotic Evil as their alignment.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Except that alignment informs the lore. Like, you can't argue that alignment isn't lore because it is. If it wasn't lore, then it's useless as a quick tool because it'd represent nothing.
Alignment does not inform the lore at all. The opposite might be true, though. As I stated above, for every piece of racist lore you show for an evil(or not evil) creature, I can write a piece of non-racist lore for it that also matches the alignment. If alignment informed the lore, I could not do that.
I mean, most of that lore has to do with being Chaotic Evil. That's part of the problem with associating a whole alignment with a race, especially when you have lore associations with certain alignments, like Chaotic Evil being largely reserved for savage barbarians.
None of that lore has to do with being CE, since you can write lore that isn't all the same and also be CE. CE might have to do with the lore, though. They might have written the lore and then chosen an alignment they thought fit with it. You're reversing the connection, if any, here.
Sure, but it just so happens that Chaotic Evil stuff relates more to barbarians and monsters than others. It's almost like that alignment is a shorthand for a certain kind of lore.
Not really. If it related more to monsters, monsters would nearly all be CE. Being a monster is completely unrelated to any particular alignment. Same with barbarians. They can be chaotic, neutral, good, lawful, and evil.
I said that it's associated with slavery and slave ownership, and even your TV Tropes link said as such. From that comes a link to "domination", which several of your video game examples play into (Ivy and Franzsika, for example).
Domination does not equate to slavery. Infliction of pain does not equate to slavery. You're trying to force connections that are not present in those examples. You CAN come up with a depiction of someone using a whip and relate it to slavery, but just having a whip isn't enough to do that.
 

teitan

Legend
Sure, but my problem is that "Lawful vs Chaotic" becomes really weird, to the point of not making sense. If someone wanted to really make an argument that alignment is not lore, they'd pull out what @tetrasodium did because I have no idea how the heck elves of all stripes and colors are listed at "Chaotic" when they generally live in ordered empires of some sort.
Law vs Chaos originally represented a more cosmic struggle, that's why it was very hard to explain Neutral once the good-evil axis was introduced. Back before 1e Law vs Chaos represented "Good vs. Evil" in the sense of Order vs Entropy and as presented in Moorcock's works like Elric. Chaos was unabashedly associated with demons and dark gods while Law was associated with angels and gods we would call good. Law was Camelot and Chaos was Mad Max. A lot like Warhammer Fantasy Battles or Age of Sigmar. Warhammer, the strategy battle game, not the RPG necessarily, gave a great example of how this struggle worked on a cosmic scale. It was a common trope.

Neutrality therefore had a goal, it was a bonafide alignment beyond I don't care. Mordenkainen was/is the prime example of this as he sought to keep the balance of Law vs Chaos in check throughout the Flanaess. This is also why Druid's were Neutral as well, they were keeping the balance between nature and progress, the wilds vs cities, so that society didn't encroach too much on the forces of nature. Within these contexts they made sense. Even alignment languages made sense in that CHaos was what we would call infernal or abyssal and Law would be Celestial, as two examples.

4e kinda understood this except it didn't understand that pivot point represented by Neutral as a fulcrum that helped to maintain the world. With it's simplified alignment and origin for the Abyss it played right into the Law vs Chaos paradigm with the Elemental CHaos & Astral Sea. The 5 steps of Alignment made sense in the idea of these alignments representing a characters morality. Lawful Good, Good representing the Law of the original game, Evil and Chaotic Evil representing the Chaos axis. Unaligned was in general representative of how CHaotic Neutral seemed to play as opposed to it's intent. This implementation of ALignment failed to account for the intent behind neutral in pre-D&D weird fiction like Moorcock and others who followed similar ideas in their work like Pratchett.

Since 2e Alignment in AD&D has been very different. Arguably since mid 1e. Gygax's removal from TSR shifted the game to a much more story driven game. I think it would have gone that way either way though. With that shift alignment turned into a straight jacket. We see these arguments play out in forums such as a Paladin must obey the law of the land and that kind of thing which is not actually representative of Lawful Good even in the sense of of the way late 1e and 2e, even 3e, presented Alignments. Lawful Good is Captain America, doing what is right, self sacrifice and integrity. In ethics the Lawful Good alignment would be Deontology, the practice of prioritizing duty above all else regardless of consequences. Deontology is doing what is "right". That's just one example though. ALignments represent, now, ethical questions and how you would respond to them as presented in 2e and later. It should never have been presented as a straight jacket for behavior.

That's why I am kind of in favor for removing them and noting when something is Evil or Good in their description, even if it is a culture because as I have demonstrated, there are even real world examples of evil cultures and societies.
 



Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Sure, but my problem is that "Lawful vs Chaotic" becomes really weird, to the point of not making sense. If someone wanted to really make an argument that alignment is not lore, they'd pull out what @tetrasodium did because I have no idea how the heck elves of all stripes and colors are listed at "Chaotic" when they generally live in ordered empires of some sort.
The same way America would be CG. We have laws and structure, but a tremendous amount of that goes into protecting individualism and making sure that the majority don't squash the minority view. I imagine elven society is similar in outlook.
 

teitan

Legend
The same way America would be CG. We have laws and structure, but a tremendous amount of that goes into protecting individualism and making sure that the majority don't squash the minority view. I imagine elven society is similar in outlook.
But much cooler!
 


Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I find alignment not as useful for PCs or NPCs, but pretty useful as a short-hand for monsters. Much like you could leave off AC as a stat but include in the description that they are wearing wearing plate mail and a shield and I could calculate their AC from that. But it would be annoying because you're missing the easy two-digit summary of their AC of 20. Similarly, you can describe their alignment in the text, but the short-hand of CE is very helpful.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I find alignment not as useful for PCs or NPCs, but pretty useful as a short-hand for monsters. Much like you could leave off AC as a stat but include in the description that they are wearing wearing plate mail and a shield and I could calculate their AC from that. But it would be annoying because you're missing the easy two-digit summary of their AC of 20. Similarly, you can describe their alignment in the text, but the short-hand of CE is very helpful.
I'm much the same, except that I find it useful for minor NPCs. I'm going to figure out the detailed personality for the King, but not necessarily his Butler and Chamber Maid. Unless they're going to be major players that is. I'll probably just give them an alignment and roll up a random quirk or two and call it a day.
 

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