[RL History] Why is the longbow better than the shortbow?

Halivar said:
Now, put them up against English longbowmen, and they won't even make it to firing distance. If you'll recall the scene from Braveheart, the English lost because they insisted on the silly outmoded idea that they ought to be sending cavalry in when their longbowmen were doing well enough.

I've been doing some reseach. One source (popular mechanics) sites the draw of Mongol bows at 160 lb. and their range at 600 yards. Another source puts that range at 440 yards (and 660 yards with flight arrows). Also, in 1796 the Ottoman Sultan Selim fired an arrows from his composite short bow a distance of 972 yards. A record distance that held up until 1979 (and that shot was using a foot bow). These ranges can be misleading because of the affect upon them by the arrow's weight. A heavier arrow is needed for armor penetration.

OTOH, I did find that longbows have a longer draw than composite bows because of their shorter backing height (the distance from the bow to the string when at rest). Longer draw generally means more energy. The advantage a composite bow (actually, any recurve bow) gives is a flatter draw force curve.

Aaron (still just as confused)
 

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While a longbow and a short bow may have similar draw weights, there is the distance over which that force is applied. A longbow has a slightly longer draw, mostly because the arrow is usually drawn to the jawline.

Even more to the point, the greater span on the longbow means a smoother acceleration curve for the arrow. If the acceleration on the arrow is too abrupt, it will warp -- and warping means it will wobble in flight, and that consumes a great deal of energy... Compound bows, historically, added a great deal to the draw weight, and didn't worry about the wobble of the flight. That was fine at short ranges. Mongol shortbows were penetrating armor at point-blank range, too. The wobble, however, ate so much energy that the arrow was useless at even fairly medium ranges

Historically, the arrows were not the same -- the longer draw required a longer arrow (the clothyard shaft).

OfficeRonin
 

The Mongol shortbow was an extremely complicated weapon, usually called a 'composite' bow because it was made of three materials - wood, horn and sinew, and it took great craftsmanship to get it right. Gaston Phebus, writing in 1358, reckoned they were equal weapons.

also, from this link.

...The Mongol warrior's principal weapon was the composite recurved bow, of which he might carry as many as three. Characteristically, each man carried a short bow for use from the saddle and a long bow for use on foot. The former, firing light arrows, was for skirmishing and long-range harassing fire; the latter had the advantage in killing power at medium ranges. The saddle bow was probably capable of sending a light arrow more than 500 yards; the heart of the long bow's engagement envelope would have been about 100-350 yards, close to that of the contemporary English longbow. Each warrior carried several extra quivers of arrows on campaign....
So the mongol composite recurve shortbow was capable of firing at incredible range, but only relatively light arrows (maybe d6 damage ;)) that probably wouldn't penetrate plate armor like Welsh longbows. But the range of the shortbows was incredible. It seems to me that mongol horse archers would be able to take out Welsh longbowmen based on that criterium alone. If you brought the speed and meneuverability of their mounts into the mix, the Welsh wouldn't have a chance.

A good portion of battlefield strategy is understanding which units are effective against each other. Welsh longbowmen were powerful, but certainly would not have prevailed against all opponents as easily as they did against the French heavy cavalry.
 

Ok,

The english longbow- In truth the english longbow was made of yew and was a self staff bow (meaning not composite, all one piece). They were cheap to make and training the men to use them was also cheap (compared to training knights and armored soldiers) and this allowed for archers to have a large battlefield presence, which made thier weapons even more deadly.

Mongols were very good mounted archers. Thus they had somthing no one else had- speed combined with range. More manuverability and range are two things you always want on the battlefield, and no one could match the mongols on that.

What the english lacked in mobility, they made up with range.

here is a good paper on the longbow-

http://www.student.utwente.nl/~sagi/artikel/longbow/longbow.html

Aaron.
 


When I first saw the question, I immediately thought of momentum and gravity. Had to go through and made sure no one else stated it before me.

Longbows have a longer range (i don't know the mechanics) so the arrows are launched at a greater initial angle than a shortbow. Because of this, their downward angle is greater, providing more gravitational momentum.

Whereas a shortbow's flight path has to be more level, and so all the force comes from the bow itself, the longbow is usually launched at a 30 degree angle and the momentum of it from falling out of the sky is what does a lot of the damage.

At least, that is what I always notice everytime I see lonngbows used, compared to shortbows.

I am not an expert so this is all guesswork...
 

TheAuldGrump said:
Hmmm, sounds more like Agincourt.

The Auld Grump

Well the level of historical knowledge here is certainly impressive... :rolleyes:

1. The Battle of Stirling in Braveheart is a-historical, the real battle was fought around Stirling Bridge. Wallace let a chunk of the English knights cross the bridge, then attacked before the army could form up, driving them back into the river.

2.The English never lost a major battle in northern France - Crecy, Poitiers, Agincourt were all English victories, largely accredited to the longbowmen. It was the French knights who insisted on charging and getting pincushioned. The longbow could penetrate full plate at close range, long range arcing fire generally wouldn't punch through plate armour but would still wound and panic horses.

The longbow (English or Mongol composite) obviously had a greater effective range than the shortbow. Archers used _different sorts of arrows_ at different ranges - eg Mongol horsebow archers in quote above are described as using light arrows from horseback for greater range when skirmishing. They would be outranged in effective fire by longbow-armed infantry though, so skirmishing vs such would be risky. Against crossbowmen their greater mobility would be deadly though, they could ride in, fire and retreat far faster than the crossbow can fire, and the crossbow is not accurate at longer ranges.
 

2.The English never lost a major battle in northern France - Crecy, Poitiers, Agincourt were all English victories, largely accredited to the longbowmen. It was the French knights who insisted on charging and getting pincushioned. The longbow could penetrate full plate at close range, long range arcing fire generally wouldn't punch through plate armour but would still wound and panic horses.


I watched a program a little while ago about Agincourt and how it wasnt the longbowmen that won the day, rather that the incompetence of the French Knights who lost it. They got themselves in a muddle and bogged down and a huge number were captured. They were then slaughtered.

While Im not fond of the current rewriting of history thats going on, this program was quite interesting.
 

Balgus said:
Longbows have a longer range (i don't know the mechanics) so the arrows are launched at a greater initial angle than a shortbow. Because of this, their downward angle is greater, providing more gravitational momentum.

Whereas a shortbow's flight path has to be more level, and so all the force comes from the bow itself, the longbow is usually launched at a 30 degree angle and the momentum of it from falling out of the sky is what does a lot of the damage.

Uh, better revisit high school physics. A projectile (whether fired on an arcing path or a flat path) only gains energy from gravity when fired at a target below the level of the launch mechanism (measured relative to a horizontal plane normal to the gravity vector).

For simplicity, we'll talk about an arrow fired in a vacuum (things slow down faster in atmosphere, but the essential physics is the same). When fired, the arrow's velocity can be resolved into two components: a horizontal component and a vertical one. The horizontal component remains constant until the arrow hits the target (aside from drag slowing, but we're talking about a vacuum here).

The vertical component is what you're talking about. For an arrow fired perfectly horizontally, the vertical velocity vector always points downward (as a result of gravitational acceleration), which is why the arrow descends (ignoring lift effects that actually cause most projectiles to rise slightly during flight) until it hits the ground. Two arrows fired from the same height hit the ground with the same vertical velocity, regardless of the distance they travel due to horizontal velocity.

For an arrow fired at an upward arc, some of it's velocity is on a horizontal component, and some is on a vertical component (upward vertical vector). Gravity has the effect of gradually reducing the upward velocity (as a result of the downward gravitational acceleration vector) until zero velocity is reached, at which time the arrow's velocity vector turns to point downward, and the arrow accelerates downward. Because gravitational acceleration is constant over the distances we're dealing with, and because no other force acts on the arrow, at the point the arrow reaches the altitude it was fired from, it has exactly the same downward velocity (magnitude) that it had when fired upward.

In other words, when firing on an arc at a target on the same level, the arrow has the same velocity (and hence energy) at the target as it had at launch -- all gravity has done is changed the direction of the velocity vectors. Air resistance has the net effect of slowing the arrow and hence sapping energy, so in atmosphere the arrow fired on a long arc actually has slightly less energy than one fired in a straight line, because drag has a longer time to act on the arrow.

Which arrow does a better job at penetrating armor (fired flat or in an arc, given teh same energy) depends on the geometry of the armor, mechanics of the materials, and relation of the arrow's velocity vector to armor thickness. For a vertical plate, an arrow arriving at an angle is actually less likely to penetrate, because it has a greater thickness of material to penetrate (which is why the armor on most modeern tanks is sloped).

So why fire in an arc? To get more range. Any projectile fired level from a human being's height hits the ground in exactly the same time. By firing upward, you increase the time for the horizontal component of velocity to act, increasing your range -- which is maximum at a firing angle of 45 degrees.


The longbow's mechanical superiority isn't due to its firing arc. It's due to the mechanics of the bow, specifically the strength of the draw and length of draw, as others have said. Longbows tended to have much stronger draws than shortbows (though composite and compound bow types can be made stronger). All the strength of the draw does -- assuming the archer is strong enough to make full use of it -- is determine the maximum force that is available to act on the arrow.

The other critical factor is the length of the draw. The longer a force has to act on a projectile, the more energy is imparted to the projectile. For two bows of a given strength and othewise identical properties, the bow with the longer draw will impart greater energy to its arrow, and hence greater potential range and penetrating power.

This is a simplification, of course, as there are still other factors -- losses in bending of the arrow material itself, the energy discharge curve of the bow and bowstring -- serve to create even more differences between bows. The latter factor can potentially have a greater effect than draw length, which is why modern compound bows can outperform longbows even with shorter draws, as they have more efficient energy discharge curves.

All of which is long-winded way of saying "Yep, it makes sense for longbows to do 1d8 and shortbows to do 1d6, and for mighty compound bows to be able to add more damage." ;)
 

Aaron2 said:
They are firing the same arrows.

Mistaken assumption number 1. Only in the abstract world of DnD are all arrows the same. I fire different arrows in my compound bow than I do my recurve, I fire different arrows depending on the draw weight I have my compound bow set at, I fire different arrows depending on how long of a shot I'm making, and my father has to use an entierly different set because he has a longer draw on his bow (My arrows are about two inches too short to be fully drawn in his bow, whereas on mine his arrows are too long and thus less ideal).
 

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